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Gay magsblok in die Vatikaan?

Jaco 2013-07-24
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Pous Benedict het skaars die Vatikaan ingetrek, toe hy ontdek daar is ‘n gay magsblok binne die Curia, die hoogste raad in die kerk.

It is being reported that Pope Francis recently told an audience of South American prelates that there is indeed a “gay lobby” in the Vatican. The pronouncement, if that’s what it actually was, is predictably being interpreted in various ways. Some see the statement as a long overdue admission of a fact that has always been ignored but is hardly a secret based on revelations regarding priestly conduct that have flooded the media over the past two decades. Following the lead of the Italian media, there has also been considerable speculation that homosexuals in the Vatican might well have been subject to blackmail, prompting the pope’s concern because of possible linkages to the recent Vatileaks exposure of confidential curial and papal documents.

Some media accounts also recall the speculation centering on the premature resignation of Pope Benedict XVI that circulated when he stepped down in February suggesting that there might well be some kind power struggle fueled by leaks of information initiated by well-placed homosexuals, forcing the pontiff to resign rather that confront a new scandal that would do more damage to an already reeling church. The Italian iconoclastic newspaper La Repubblica—and also Panorama magazine, which was famously involved in the Niger uranium story—claimed that high-level clergy “united by sexual orientation” were being blackmailed by outsiders linked to them.

The American Conservative – 18/6/13

Jaco Fourie

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Kommentaar

  • CorneliusHenn

    hahaha ... en meteens sal daar geen kwessie oor die gesag van die bron wees nie, hahaha ... kan Wouter Ferns nie maar die volledige berig hieroor uit THE TIMES vir ons "copy&paste" (spoeg en plak) nie? ... maar wat is die punt?... sover ek weet het die Katolieke vrede met homoseksualiteit ... dis die perverse, promiskue en dekadente leefstyl deur gays en straights wat die werklike kopseer is - en ook nie net vir die Kerk nie - maar vir alle verantwoordelike bydraers tot mediese fondse en belasting oor die hele wye wêreld heen ... Katolieke groete, Cornelius Henn

     

     

     

    Reply
  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Lankal opgetel.  Nog voor ek vir jou  van die Vatikaan Bank geldwassery debakel genoem het.  Ek volg 'n stelselmatige plan indien jy nie reeds agtergekom het nie.  Eers oor die pedofiel pouse; toe oor die straight jagse pouse; toe die internasionale pedofiel priesters; daarna Croatia volksmoord van Serbiers deur die kerk ondersteun; daarop die Filipynse kondom debakel waar die kerk huidig steeds direk betrokke is;  die huidige pouse se on-objektiewiteit ivm die Falkland eilande; die kerk se soeke na internasionale sekulere mag; nou die Curia gay magsblok.  Meksiko volg en dan nog 'n paar ander voorvalle, voordat ek voorlopig van die Katolieke onderwerp afsien.

    Jaco Fourie

    Reply
  • Jaco

    Wouter

    Terloops. Hoekom het jy dit nie nodig geag om dit te noem toe jy dit agtergekom of terwyl ek oor Katolieke skryf nie. Die Rapport Kerk-Apartheid geval het jy wel  nodig gevoel om te noem buite verband binne verband van die Katolieke onderwerp.

    Jaco Fourie

    Reply
  • CorneliusHenn

     

    "Hi" Jaco, ek wil graag 'n wel ervare Lama aan jou voorstel - François Williams!... ek dink hy kan beslis jou homo-mojo so 'n hupstootjie gee ... lees hier vir so 'n ligte smakie: https://www.litnet.co.za/Article/die-nuwe-ware-afrikaners ... jy sal dit nie glo as François eers warm begin raak nie! ... dink net hoe beïndruk gaan die patetieke bleeksiel Wouter Ferns, dan met jou wees! ... nie te danke nie, Cornelius Henn

     

     

     

    Reply
  • Wouter

    Hello Jaco. 

     
    Volgens ingeligte bronne het die gesprek soos volg gegaan en is Pous Francis aan die woord: 

     
    "In the Curia there are holy people, truly, there are holy people. But there's also a current of corruption – there's that, too, it's true.... The 'gay lobby' is spoken of, and it's true, that's there... we need to see what we can do.The reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all the cardinals sought in the congregations before the Conclave. I sought it myself. [But] I can't do the reform myself, these matters of management.... I'm very disorganized, I've never been good in this. But the cardinals of the commission are going to carry it forward. There's [Oscar] Rodríguez Maradiaga, who carries the baton [as the group's coordinator], there's [the Chilean Francisco Javier] Errázuriz, they're very organized. The one from Munich [Reinhard Marx] is also very organized. They will take it forward.... Pray for me that I make the fewest mistakes possible."
     
    Maar meer inligting as dit bied Pous Francis nie. Daarom dan die rede hoekom ek dit nie eerder geplaas het nie, want na dit geplaas sou word, is die vraag, 'wat bewys jy?' en dit is die vraag aan jou ook: 
     
    Wat is die doel, wat bereik jy en wat het jy gepoog om te bereik? 
     
    Die NG Kerk en apartheid was gepas aangesien die doelstelling van jou skrywe gehad om die Roomse Kerk swart te smeer. Dit is 'n moeilike spel aangesien elke instelling het skandes en skades en in jou vorige skrywes het jy die 'Moederkerke' 'n vrypas gegee en hulle nie met dieselfde ywer ondersoek as waaraan jy die Roomse Kerk probeer blootstel nie. 
     
    Dit is daarom 'n vraag van konsekwentheid. 
     
    Soos jy kan sien is Pous Francis die eerste een om foute te erken en in die lig daarvan wat is die nut om die Roomse Kerk te probeer swart smeer?
     
    Daar is geen nuus dus wat nie deur die Pous self bevestig word nie.
     
    Daarom dan wat is die doel. Goed jy het 'n plan, maar wat is die uiteinde? 
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
    Reply
  • CorneliusHenn

    Wouter,  

    Ek respekteer die moedigheid waarmee jy Jaco Fourie se eentonige perversie omtrent die Katolieke, in die oë kyk.  

    Jaco Fourie, het egter reeds sy bedoeling as volg regverdig: "Cornelius gee kort-kort onnodige en ongesubstansieerde steke na Afrikaanse Calvinisme.  Nouja.  Al is ek [Jaco Fourie] ‘n ateis, het ek ‘n kulturele (nie godsdienstige) aanvoeling met Afrikaanse Calvinisme, weens my voorgeslagtlike agtergrond waarop ek besonders trots is.  In Israel is daar meer ateiste onder die Jode als die ortodokse Jode, wat nieteenstaande, ‘n kulturele verbintenis met die res van Jodendom heet.  Ek wou Cornelius uitwys dat die kamma “sondes” van Afrikaanse Calvinisme geen sondes is in vergelyking met die van sy Katolieke Kerk wat hy so ophemel." (sic)  

    Dus Wouter, so moeilik as wat dit is om te glo, net so het jy en andere soos Kobus de Klerk, nou reeds vir jare enige moontlikheid vir sinvolle gesprek oor vele onderwerpe, so bederf!  

    As jy eerlik is, maak vrede met die feit dat jy net so skuldig is aan persoonlike aanvalle waardeur die onderwerp en enige logika daarin, verniel staan.  

    Nie te danke,

    Cornelius Henn

     

    Reply
  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Die vraag oor meeste van jou skrywes kan ook gevra word: "wat is jou doel daarmee en die uiteinde"
    Beide van hulle los jy mense in die lug daarmee, sonder om self 'n finale voor te stel nie.

    Ek het my doel voorheen gestel.  1. Om Cornelius uit te wys die Calviniste se sondes is geen sondes vergeleke met die Katolieke se afgryses.  2.  Om die geveinsthede van hulle wat dinge as sondes verkondig, maar self erg dieselfde sondes sonding. 3. Die gevaar van die Katolieke kerk wat veral in Katolieke lande die indiwidu se menseregte kan manipuleer na eie belange. 4. En vir algemene inligting vir lesers wat normaalweg nie sodanige inligting bekom nie. 5. Ook om te toon dat ek laat nie aan my voorskryf watter onderwerpe ek mag en nie mag oor skryf nie wat die moderateur my toelaat om oor te skryf nie.

    Ek het ook genoem (vir FC Boots) dat ek nie alle afgryse in een asem gaan uitblaker nie, maar beperk my tot een onderwerp op 'n slag, huidig die Katolieke geval, en sal miskien by die ander uitkom.

    Net soos jy gedurig jou afgryse vir apartheid van die verlede hier uitblaker, weerhou dit nie my om dieselfde met die Katolieke kerk te doen nie, en net soos jou sieninge nie met myne ooreenstem nie, moet ook nie verwag myne moet met joune ooreenstem nie

    Jaco Fourie

    Reply
  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Vergeet om verder te sê:  Jy lees deeglik, maar jy vergeet selektief.

    Jy het my redes hierbo in vorige skrywes reeds gelees, dan vra jy my asof jy nie reeds weet nie.  ''n Ander voorbeeld is waar jy my vasvat omrede ek niks oor die Afrikaanse kerke praat nie, dus volgens jou is ek inkonsekwent. 

    Ek het in die verlede en die onlangse verlede geskryf oor die dalende leketalle van die Afrikaanse kerke, en my sieninge waarom dit geskied, asook oor die aantal kerke wat verkoop is, selfs een wat in 'n Moeslem moskee omskep is.

    Jy hou jou voor as die voorstander van die onderdruktes (swartes alleenlik) in hierdie land, maar voel vere vir die menseregte in ander lande wat deur die Katolieke kerk te nagekom is, en wil nou als voorstander van die kerk se hierogie, nl die pous staan, en neem aanstoot dat ek die Katolieke kerk "swartsmeer" soos jy dit aan my stel.  Ek die Katolieke kerk swartsmeer?  Of het hulle nie hulself swartgesmeer nie, ononderbroke oor 2000 jaar.

    Jaco Fourie

    Reply
  • Wouter

    Hello Jaco. 

     
    Kennis geneem van wat jou antwoord is alhoewel daar geen poging was om jou in te perk nie en is dit verstommend dat jy dit nou so aanbied. Daar word dan gewag vir die volgende afgryse waarmee jy gaan kom. 
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
    Reply
  • Wouter

    Hello Jaco, 

     
    Nuanse, nuanse, probeer nuanse want jou swartsmeer van die Rooms Katolieke Kerk is so eensysdig dat dit geen toets van volledigheid sal slaag nie. Hierdie fiksasie op die Rooms Katolieke Kerk is net omdat jy Cornelius Henn as 'n 'Katoliek' sien en so pakslae wil uitdeel. 
     
    Die Rooms Katoliek Kerk kan sonder twyfel kritiseer word en vir daardie kritiek word gewag aangesien jy tot nou nog nie met dit gekom het nie. Voorbeelde waar die lede van die Kerk misdade pleeg word deur jou aangebied asof dit amptelike beleid is. 
     
    Daarom word daar gewag vir die volgende afgryse waarmee jy vorendag gaan kom. 
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
    Reply
  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Jy skryf:   "want jou swartsmeer van die Rooms Katolieke Kerk is so eensysdig dat dit geen toets van volledigheid sal slaag nie"

    Staaf bogenoemde stelling met voorbeelde

    Jaco Fourie.

    Reply
  • Wouter

    Hello, 

     
    Uit vandag se Financial Times: (26 Julie 2013)
     
    ‘People’s Pope’ connects with Brazil’s poor
    By John Paul Rathbone
     
    By shunning Church opulence, Francis is walking the walk...
     
    Two unusual events took place in Brazil this week. First, it has been snowing, and second, Pope Francis was mobbed when he rode through Rio de Janeiro in an open-sided car. Event number one is uncommon in a country better known for tropical beaches; number two is noteworthy as the Catholic Church is better known for keeping its distance from crowds. Pope Francis’ predecessor, Benedict XVI, toured in a bulletproof Mercedes-Benz. Francis, by contrast, is in a Fiat, a “people’s car”.
     
    His choice of ride is significant. Brazil’s “World Youth Day”, a week-long jamboree of the faithful, is Francis’ first trip abroad. 
     
    Although scheduled long before he became Pope four months ago, the event marks a fortuitous return by the 76-year old Argentine pontiff to his “beloved Latin America”. It is a timely opportunity for the “slum Pope” to re-emphasise his central message: the need to serve the poor.
     
    This is a message which also mirrors the challenges faced by Brazil, one of the most unequal societies on the planet, lately wracked by street protests, sometimes a million strong.Like the country Francis is visiting, the Church is wrestling with practical problems of many kinds. These range from sex-abuse scandals to corruption, a self-entitled central bureaucracy and shrinking congregations. 
     
    With over 120m Catholics, Brazil may have more believers than anywhere else. 

    Protestant evangelicals have moved actively into poor areas – that is why they have taken spiritual market share.

    Francis is moving fast to try to change this, alongside his other priority of taking on the interests of the Vatican’s Curia, the Holy See’s administrative body. (It is surely no coincidence that the cleric he appointed to head the Vatican bank, and perhaps wind it down, was quickly smeared by media leaks.) Thus, when the Pontiff spoke at a Wednesday mass of the importance of “hopefulness, openness to being surprised by God, and living in joy”, his words were sincere. So, too, was the concern he showed on a Thursday visit to Rio’s Varginha favela, a slum that was once so violent it was known as the Gaza Strip.

    This is the singular advantage the Pope has over political leaders. Even if they face comparable problems, their methods of overcoming them are different. 

    As Christopher Caldwell, an FT columnist, has pointed out, unlike governments the Church works though charisma, not logistics or public relations. Its most effective argument – that society should “take up the cross” – is in doing so itself. 

    By shunning traditional Church opulence, Francis is walking the walk.

    Washing the feet of Aids sufferers or taking the bus to work, as Francis has done. 

    The humility of the Pope has inspired many people. In Latin America, it should be making many others uncomfortable, too...........
    Reply
  • Wouter

    Hello, 

     
    So ook uit Der Spiegel die volgende temas soos gepubliseer 23 Julie 2013: 
     
    Fisher of Men
    The New World of Pope Francis
    By Fiona Ehlers
     
    Openness, modesty, change: Pope Francis has launched a revolution in the Vatican as he seeks to clean up the Catholic Church and improve its image. In the process, the pontiff is making friends as well as enemies.The great awakening begins at 7 a.m. every morning in the Vatican, when Pope Francis stands before 80 or 90 employees in the austere, modern chapel of the Santa Maria guesthouse and reads the first mass of the day. He speaks Italian with a soft Spanish intonation, reading the mass without a manuscript and without using Latin -- and looking directly into the faces of the congregation. He then vanishes through the vestry to join the worshippers, folding his hands, bowing his head and praying.The Vatican's garbage collectors were the first employees the new pope invited to these morning masses, followed by the security personnel, gardeners, nuns and even Vatican Bank advisors. Many of the Vatican's roughly 4,000 employees come to the mass -- not because they are required to, but because they adore Francis.
     
    "He has no trepidations," says a fellow resident of the guesthouse on the southern edge of Vatican City, where Francis lives. He gives "simple sermons (with) warm words. He has overcome the separation between the laity and the clergy.
     
    "At lunch, Jorge Mario Bergoglio stands in the cafeteria and waits for his coffee to drip out of the machine. 
     
    "He sat alone at first, and we would stare over at him," says the fellow resident. But now they sit with him. 
     
    Recently, Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle, one of the youngest members of the conclave, went over to the pope and asked: "Holy Father, may I?" "Of course, holy son," the pope replied.
     
    Francis is a fisher of men, much like former Pope John Paul II. Almost four months after his election on March 13, after his first, almost shy "buona sera" from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica, he has taken his office to heavenly heights. He makes it easy for people to love him. They like his incongruous approach and his plain words. "Pray for me," he tells them, or "bon appetit." 
     
    They like the fact that he ignores protocol, that he washed the feet of a Muslim woman at Easter, drives a Ford Focus or takes the bus and chose to live in the guesthouse instead of the Apostolic Palace.
     
    Bergoglio is the first Jesuit and, since the Middle Ages, the first non-European in the papacy. He was born in Argentina, at the "end of the world," as he says, to Italian immigrant parents. It is this perspective from which he still looks at the Old World. It allows him to demonize the financial crisis, poverty and instability that are now plaguing Southern Europe. This pope lives in the present and is more political than his predecessor. 
     
    But it is also clear that he will remain silent on certain issues and stick to his German predecessor's approach: the ordination of women, celibacy, abortion and gay marriage.
     
    Benedict XVI was the pope of words, a professorial pope whose masses resembled lectures. Francis is the opposite. Instead of arguing, he appeals to people; he is best understood through his gestures and appearances. His visit to the Mediterranean island of Lampedusa was a gesture of compassion, and it offered a taste of his approach: going to the people, mingling with them and asking uncomfortable questions.
     
    In his sermons, Francis often criticizes the "sophisticated church," which he accuses of revolving around itself and striving for power and wealth. By contrast, Francis wants "a poor church and a church for the poor." 
     
    He wants it to venture out to the periphery, to the margins of society. This is the concept of the "theology of the people," which influenced Francis. In the 1970s, its adherents left their rectories and moved to the slums.There is hardly any spot in Europe that is more peripheral than Lampedusa, where Africa begins and where Europe is defending its fortress of prosperity. During his visit, the pope stood on an altar made from the wood of stranded ships on which refugees had died, and raged against the "globalization of indifference." 
     
    He asked who was to blame for the suffering of refugees, and why so many people have forgotten empathy and lost the ability to weep. It was a promising start to his papacy.
     
    He is a man of action, and he operates at an astonishing pace. "He acts like someone who knows that he doesn't have forever. After all, he only has half a lung, and he sways like a ship when he walks. He'll be 77 in December," says an employee of the curia who prefers to remain unnamed.'
     
    Francis will have a hardworking first summer as pope, with no plans to take a break at the papal summer resistance in Castel Gandolfo. 
     
    The curia is currently divided into those who are concerned that the pope is overexerting himself, and those who are afraid of the new order. "The pope is still getting warmed up," says the source from the curia. "We are crouching in the trenches, and quite a few are trembling."
     
    One of the new pope's biggest reform projects is the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR), more commonly known as the Vatican Bank. 
     
    Nevertheless, something akin to perestroika seemed to be in the works, because we were suddenly granted entry to this massive, otherwise off-limits fortress next to the Secretariat of State. 
     
    At the end of the corridor is the secret nerve center, which we were also allowed to visit briefly. It contains a table, cables and many monitors, where a Harvard professor and a dozen external management consultants were sitting with their sleeves rolled up. Their job is that of auditing the accounts, reviewing every transaction for more than €10,000, and screening every customer. 
     
    One was already caught in late June trying to bring €20 million from Switzerland to Rome in a private jet: Monsignore Nunzio Scarano, the chief accountant for the Vatican's property portfolio, who had intended to launder money through the IOR. It is clear that others will follow, now that the Vatican aims to wipe the slate clean in God's bank.Francis is paying special attention to the IOR. Benedict did so, as well, when he appointed Ernst von Freyberg as the bank's director in February.
     
    Francis, on the other hand, issued a hand-written decree in late June to form an investigative committee. Two days later, the chief accountant was arrested and on July 2, the two general directors abruptly resigned. 
     
    Last Friday, Francis appointed a special commission to advise him directly on economic issues and create more transparency. 
     
    The pope also appointed a prelate who has access to all bank meetings and reports directly to Francis.
     
    That appointment, though, could prove to be Pope Francis' first mistake. He chose Monsignore Battista Ricca, the former administrator of the Vatican guesthouse, for the job. 
     
    But the magazineL'Espresso revealed last week that Ricca was transferred to the guesthouse in 2001 for disciplinary reasons, because he was allegedly living with and maintaining a homosexual relationship with a man in the nunciature of Montevideo and was beaten up in a gay bar. So does it exist after all, the "gay lobby" at the Vatican, whose members secure positions for each other? Did the curia deliberately conceal Ricca's past from the pope? These questions will have to remain unanswered for now, but the Ricca appointment could come back to haunt the pope.
     
    Another change under Francis is that the church will be less inclined to fight rebels within its ranks.The fact that Francis chose Brazil as the destination for his first major trip was meant to show, says Müller, that the church consists of more than "that dissolute bunch from Rome, with their pomp and arrogance." 
     
    He hopes that the sermons in Rio de Janeiro will provide a boost similar to that emanating from his visit to Lampedusa. Francis plans to speak clearly in Rio, directing his comments to the poor in the Varginha favela, young criminals and drug addicts.
     
    Yet as approachable as Francis seems, it is difficult to meet him. 
     
    In mid-May, with the German chancellor having just arrived for a private audience, a select group of Germans were allowed to greet the pope afterward. We spent several minutes walking through the corridors of the Apostolic Palace, past saluting Swiss Guards, before being asked to wait in antechambers with damask-covered walls. 
     
    One could hear Chancellor Angela Merkel's girlish giggle from within. 
     
    "The next time we'll have pizza on the piazza," she said in German as she left.
     
    Francis, shorter than he seems in pictures and exhausted after a 47-minute conversation about the market economy and financial regulations, stayed behind. His handshake was firm and his eyes curious. There was nothing pompous about him; he wasn't wearing the golden Ring of the Fishermen, but rather a plastic watch.
     
    What does one say to the pope? Perhaps that Rome seems like a new place since his election, like a city that has awakened from a long sleep? 
     
    He has undoubtedly heard it before, but he still laughed heartily, and he seemed genuinely pleased and real, like a person who is wildly enthusiastic about his job.Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan.....
     
    Die slotsom van my kant af, aangesien so versoek deur Jaco. Ek glo in hierdie man en wens hom absoluut net  die beste toe hy kom eg oor en mag hy suksesvol wees. 
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
    Reply
  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Jy skryf:  "Die slotsom van my kant af, aangesien so versoek deur Jaco. Ek glo in hierdie man en wens hom absoluut net  die beste toe hy kom eg oor en mag hy suksesvol wees."

    In al twee lywige persaanhalings van jou, wat geensins besprekingspunte tussen ons twee staaf nie, kan ek nie sien hoe jy kan skryf "so versoek deur Jaco". Al wat dit op neerkom is jou getoonde bewondering vir die man (waaroor ek geen probleem mee het nie)

    Wat ek wel van jou hierbo versoek het was om jou stelling met voorbeelde te staaf waar jy gesê het: "want jou swartsmeer van die Rooms Katolieke Kerk is so eensysdig dat dit geen toets van volledigheid sal slaag nie" Hierdie versoek van my het jy steeds nie aan voldoen nie.

    Jy weet Wouter.  Ek skryf oor die Katolieke kerk.  Jy het 'n paar keer probeer om my teë te bewys, wat ek geen probleem mee het nie.  Elke keer kon jy dit nie regkry nie. Nou wend jy jou tot persoonlike aanvalle met gelaaide subjektiewe terme soos "swartsmeer"; "eensydigheid"; "inkonsekwent" en "fiksasie" als voorbeelde om jou onvermoëns te probeer verbloem. (Het ek ooit dieselfde teenoor jou gedoen?)

    Terloops.  Jy het gesê ek het 'n "fiksasie" omtrent die Katolieke kerk.  Waar ek volkome erken ek  het wel 'n "fiksasie" rakende gay aangeleenthede, is jy tjoepstil.  Die inkonsekwentheid waaraan jy my aan skuldig probeer maak, maak jy jouself erg aan skuldig.

    Jaco Fourie

    Reply
  • Wouter

    Hello Jaco, 

     
    In nominale terme is Cornelius 'n Anglikaan indien sy bywoning in St George gebruik sou word net soos Cornelius aangedui het hy is nie 'n Christen nie. Daarom word dit weer herhaal jou skoolgrond swartsmeer van die Roomse Katolieke Kerk in terme van 'my kerk is soveel beter as joune', of 'jou kerk is soveel sondiger' is nie die gronde waarop kritiek in kohesie teen die Roomse Kerk aangebied kan word nie. 
     
    Daarom is dit nodig dat jy verstaan, wat sou Cornelius bedoel wannneer hy aandui dat hy 'n 'katoliek' is. 
     
    Volgens my is daar nie 'n 'katoliek' nie en slaag hierdie brief daarin om beide jou en Cornelius vir my kwaad te maak, maar is jou aanslag teen die Katolieke Kerk daarom dan 'n klug want jy mis die teiken. 
     
    Dit is net so amusant dat jy kritiek van my kant af beskou as 'n manier om jou te sensor. Dit is 'n lagwekkende gedagte aangesien daar niks is wat jou gaan verhoed om een afgryse na die ander hier te plaas nie, hoe afgryslik dit ook al mag wees. Al is jou plan van so 'n aard dat die leser dit nie nou eintlik sal agterkom nie. 
     
    Dan ewe kordaat bulder jy, 'bring die bewyse'. 
     
    Na ek hieroor gedink het, gaan ek nie so doen nie, dit sou beteken ek doen jou huiswerk vir jou, maar weet dat ek in mou lag vir elke skokkende onthuling waarmee jy kan kom aangesien dit so duidelik is dat die afgryslike skrywes tot op datum eensydig en buite konteks is met sekere voorbehoude. 
     
    Hopelik is daar lesers wat genoeg kennis van die geskiedenis het om dit vir die grap te sien wat dit is maar gaan ek nie langer op die onderwerp vertoef nie. Dalk sal FC Boot die geduld toon om dit verder te neem. 
     
    Ek sluit af, kritiek teen die Roomse Katolieke Kerk is toelaatbaar en het Pous Francis jou voorgespring daarin maar is daar nog aspekte wat aangspreek kan word, maar kritiek teen die Roomse Katolieke Kerk om Cornelius 'n klap te gee is nie die korrekte gronde vir kritiek nie. 
     
    Daarom sal ek elke afgryse lees wat jy hier plaas om dit te toets aan die algemene kritiek wat teen die Kerk bekend is.  
     
    Tot op datum bied jou kritiek geen kohesie en word daar gewonder hoe het jou platvloerse verwysings na 'jagse pouse' enige waarde toe te voeg tot die probleme van die Roomse Katolieke Kerk vandag.  
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
    Reply
  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Wanneer jy stellings oor my maak, is die onus op jou om jou stellings te bewys met voorbeelde, nie ek nie.  Die feit dat jy dit nie doen nie,  en selfs soos hierbo sê jy gaan dit nie doen nie, dui aan op twee aspekte, nl jy LIEG en tweedens dui dit jou onvermoë om oopkop en onemosioneel 'n objektiewe  waarneming van die saak te kan maak, veral soos gesien word in jou emosionele weghol hierbo waar jy neerdaal tot "gutter" vlak in jou tirade teenoor myself.

    Verder jy hamer op Cornelius se Katoliek versus katoliek wat nooit 'n besprekingspunt van my was nie; om die onderwerp verder te probeer verbloem.    Ek het vyf redes gegee hoekom ek die Katoliekek kerk bespreek.  Die ander vier gaan oor aspekte wat jy gerieflikheidsonthalwe ignoreer, en wil voorgee dit gaan alleenlik om Cornelius te "klap".  mbt Cornelius het ek gesê die Katolieke kerk se sondes is erg vergeleke met die Calvinistiese sogenaamde sondes deur Cornelius genoem. Maw 'n vergelyking tussen  die twee, nie 'n "klap" nie.    Altwee van julle sien dit aan dat ek hom kamptig "klap".

    Skrik wakker ou.

    Jaco Fourie

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  • CorneliusHenn

     

    Nogmaals, baie dankie Wouter ... ek het ook vrede met jou stryd om my verwysing na katoliek (met 'n kleinletter), te verstaan ... jy is welkom om my daaroor te vra; ek sal werklik my bes doen om hierdie, en ook 'n paar ander algemene werklikhede waaroor jy struikel, aan jou te verduidelik... Cornelius Henn

     

     

     

     

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  • CorneliusHenn

     

    Jaco Fourie, jou opsetlik en onredelik verkeerde (perverse) voorstelling  van die Roomses, is reeds tot stof gemaal... net "ware gelowiges" soos Kobus de klerk en sy kruipers, bepaal dat sonde op 'n skaal van groot na klein gemeet kan word ... my beswaar teen die Protestante waarna jy desmoontlik verwys, is hul ideologiese dweep van die kansel af; soos byvoorbeeld dat APARTHEID, God se wil was (of is, en toe nie meer is nie)... die misbruik van kinders of enige ander sonde deur Katolieke gedoen, word nie van die kansel af aangemoedig nie... FC Boot en Wouter Ferns, se redes omtrent die algemene probleem met dwalinge in enige groot organisasie in die wêreld, het duidelik in jou blinde oog gegaan ... probeer tog begryp dat die Protestante (Calviniste), openlik skandepolitiek van hul kansels af bedryf, wyl kindermisbruik en ander sondes in enige katolieke gemeenskap, deur geslepe lidmate met hul eie agendas gepleeg word (nes naïewelinge in hul weerloosheid se beursies  deur dwepers met Bybels onder die arm langs hospitaalbeddens gebuit word)...  Cornelius Henn

     

     

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  • Wouter

    Hello Jaco, 

     
    Fyn, indien jy glo die teendeel is nie bewys nie, hoe kan dit dan anders wees. Soos alreeds aangedui is hierdie nie 'n poging om die afgryse na afgryse wat jy hier wil plaas te stop nie en herhaal ek weer ek gaan nie jou huiswerk vir jou doen nie. Die doel van die twee artikels is juis om die nuanses en erkentenis van probleme te bevestig wat dit in kohesie doen in plaas van die onsin waarmee jy hier vorendag gekom het. 
     
    Kritiseer die Roomse Kerk, dit is jou volste reg om so te doen, maar indien jy jou so glo dat jou 'kritiek' sinvol is, dink weer. Dit is nie, en is waardeloos in konteks van dit wat deur die Roomse Kerk deur Pous Francis al self erken is. 
     
    Hiermee stap ek van die onderwerp af en kan jy jou nou maar oor tyd uitwoed tot jy van die onderwerp afsien. Maar hierdie 'jou kerk is slegter as my kerk', is veels te kinderagtig vir my. 
     
    Naskrif, op hoeveel van jou 'gay briewe' het ek werklik gaan reageer? Gaan kyk, minimaal. Ek hanteer daardie onderwerp ook anders as jy en was daar niks wat ek as waardevol beskou het nie. 
     
    So aan jou ook, kom by ou, of dan soos jy aan ander ook skryf, hou op huigel. 
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
     
     
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  • Jaco Fourie

    Wouter

    Wat jy as waardevol beskou al dan nie, gaan my werklik nie aan nie.  Ek huldig minder as niks agting vir jou insette.  Jou bydraes mbt enige onderwerp hier op die net is meerendeels ander se nagevorste sieninge wat jy copy paste, in die trant van jou copy paste van Der Spiegel en Financial  Times hierbo sonder enige oorspronklikheid van jou kant af nie, en ook gewoonlik buite konteks, soos hierbo, aangehaal.

    Noudat jy geen ordentlike "rebuttal" op my briewe kan lewer nie, wend jy jou tot "petty posturing", verleë met jou geopenbaarde onvermoëns.

    Jaco Fourie

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    • Reageer

    Jou e-posadres sal nie gepubliseer word nie. Kommentaar is onderhewig aan moderering.


     

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