Darwinisme se evo-devo bydrae tot kreasionisme

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Wouter se mondjie kwyl behoorlik by die uitspreek van sy ‘evo-devo’ slagspreuk.

Wat is evo devo? Dit is die slagspreuk vir ‘evolutionary developmental biology’. Dat daardie afgelope jare verstommende biologiese ontdekkings gedoen is, is ’n feit. Maar die evo (evolutionary) deel daarvan is gewoon maar weer tipiese darwinistiese wensdenkery en aanklamping wat die hipotese, spekulasie en konjektuur rug absoluut bloots ry.

Wat hulle biologies ontdek het, soos gewoonlik, weerspreek hulle evolusionêre hipotese:

“The most stunning discovery is that the basic tool kit genes that determine all animal forms were already present at the beginning, so mutation has played no discernible role at all.” En dit weerspreek darwinisme in enige weergawe daarvan.

Maar dit sluit volledig by Genesis 1:21, 22 en 24 aan!

Wat eintlik die verklaring is, is dat dié bevindinge eintlik getuienis is van die ultra intelligente ontwerp in die oorsprong en bestuur van die proses. Iets wat vér bokant die mens se vermoë om dit selfs te verstaan, is, maar beslis nie bo God se vermoëns nie. Hulle hantering van die kwessie word vergelyk met en herinner, in die uitspattigheid en onbewysbaarheid daarvan, aan die bedrieglike

Haeckel se uitskot teorie ‘ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny’. Hulle beweer dié evo-devo ‘bewys’ “that evolution from one form to another occurs via mutational changes in the switches. ‘Evolution of form is very much a matter of teaching very old genes new tricks”.

Hoekom slaag evo-devo nie?

In sy resensie van die Carroll boek sê Alex Williams:

“To give credit where it is due, Carroll does put forth a unifying view of how animals are made that no one else has done (at least in the popular literature). We can see this in the contrast between this book and Stephen Jay Gould’s Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History. Gould presented the Cambrian Burgess Shale creatures as bizarre animals coming from many disparate origins, but Carroll’s Evo Devo model provides a unifying explanation for the varied forms that even creationists could accept as being the likely way the Creator put these creatures together. But as Gould rightly said, the devil is in the detail.”

“Neo- Darwinists say that mutations in (protein-coding) genes control inheritance. But Evo Devo shows that it is the switching cascade that controls inheritance ... That is, control begins with the mother organism and the mother egg cell, not with the genes. This is powerful evidence for creation, not evolution. And it explains why organisms reproduce according to their kind, as the first chapter of Genesis tells us.”

“… The change was accomplished by an ‘evolutionary change’ in the switch controlling a gene called Pitx1. This gene is ‘involved in making hindlimbs in tetrapods and the pelvic fin in fish’. And the ‘evolutionary change’ was that Pitx was turned off to produce the change from the long spine condition to the reduced spine condition. If this is one of the most compelling case studies of evolution then creationists are laughing. Evolution occurred by switching off a function that already existed. Now that is compelling—evidence for creation!”

“Carroll also argues strongly that the evidence points towards ‘evolution by tinkering’ rather than creation by engineered design (pp. 194–195). However, the evidence he presents for this conclusion is an astounding ‘four secrets of evolutionary innovation’. These are: (a) work with what is already present; (b) use materials and procedures that have the potential for multifunctionality; (c) start with more than you need and work backwards (redundancy); (d) use modular components and modular switching logic—‘switches are the secret to modularity and modularity the secret to arthropod and vertebrate success … But secret (a) is a direct appeal to creation, for it assumes the pre-existence of functional life forms already containing their tool kit genes. Secret (b) implies foresight, which only intelligence has. Secret (c) again appeals to creation by starting with more and progressing to less. Secret (d) again appeals directly to creation for ‘module’ in this context means ‘a multifunctional logic driven unit”.

Wat dít beteken is dat die sogenaamde geknutsel (tinkering, in die positiewe sin van die woord) en mutasie gewoon mosterd na die maal, is, maar tog ’n soort van ’n belangrike afrondings rol speel en dat alles, die magdom ingewikkelde biologiese ingenieurswerk om by dié finale stadium uit te kom waar afrondings deur geknutsel en mutasie benodig word, aangeneem moet word, overgesetsynde, daar bestaan nie ’n evolusionêre bewysbare proses om dit te verklaar, nie. Nou word ’n fabelagtige hipotese aangewend om daardie geweldige leemte te vul.

En só gaan dit aan.

Hoe verder daardie mense swoeg en sweet, hoe meer getuienis bring hulle in vir die bevestiging van die asembenemende Handewerk van God.

Hulle maak dus géén vordering vir hulself nie, spring desperaat van die een sinkende bootjie na die ander, terwyl die getuienis vir kreasionisme instroom – van hulle kant, af.
Groete,
Kobus de Klerk 

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Kommentaar

  • Alles goed en wel om 'n artikel wat die Autraliese bioloog/teoloog/botanikus Alexander Williams geskrywe het te spoeg en plak. http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19_3/j19_3_40-44.pdf

    Tog is Williams se akademiese geloofwaardigheid verdag. Ek sukkel om enige noemenswaardige artikels van die botanikus op te spoor wat nie in die Joernaal van Kreasionisme verskyn nie. Kan jy lig op die onderwerp plaas.

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Kom ons sê jy's reg, ter wille van die argument, evolusie en Darwinisme is twak. Verskaf een enkele rede hoekom Gen.1:21, 22 en 24 geneem moet word as die verduideliking van lewe op aarde. Hoekom nie Thomas se Spaghetti Monster of 'n ras soos die Klingons van Star Trek nie?

    Jou weergawe is maar net een van duisense oor duisende jare uitgedink deur mense.

    Hoekom kry jy nie maar net 'n stil hoekie waar jy niemand pla, waar jy heeldag kan sit en lees aan jou Bybeltjie, elke woord daarin glo as die letterlike waarheid en nie 'n pes wees vir ander mense nie.

    Kan dit wees dat jy eintlik hier is om jouself te oortuig, meer as enige iets anders?

  • Stephan Marcus

    Neo- Darwinists say that mutations in (protein-coding) genes control inheritance. But Evo Devo shows that it is the switching cascade that controls inheritance ... That is, control begins with the mother organism and the mother egg cell, not with the genes. This is powerful evidence for creation, not evolution. And it explains why organisms reproduce according to their kind, as the first chapter of Genesis tells us. 

    Die "switching cascade" word beheer deur gene. Die finale produkte van hierdie gene het ’n direkte of indirekte interaksie met die gene ’n trap af in die kaskade en bepaal wanneer en waar lg. uitgedruk word. Mutasies in hierdie "skakelaar" gene was bepalend in die evolusie van die diereryk. Die skakeling wat in die ontwikkelende ovum plaasvind is die resultaat van die uitdrukking van "skakelaar" gene, wat oorerflik is en onderhewig is aan mutasie en seleksie. Die aan- en afskakel van gene tydens oögenese is ekwivalent aan sel differensiasie waarvolgens stamselle in gespesialiseerde weefsels ontwikkel. Diere teel in "soorte" omdat hulle gene van hulle ouers erf. 

    Die definisie van mutasie is nie beperk tot punt-mutasie, die verandering van slegs een basispaar iewers in die genoom nie. Groter veranderinge in die genoom, verdubbelings, herrangskikings, invoegings en delesies is ook mutasies. Inderdaad, enige oorerflike verandering in die sekwens van basispare is ’n mutasie. 

    En laastens: die geknutsel met bv. die Hox gene het daartoe gelei dat viervoetiges (onder andere salamanders, boepens varkies en mense) vier groepe van hierdie gene het, teenoor die een groep in meeste ander diergroepe. Dit is die belang van mutasie: deur duplikasies en daaropvolgende divergensie word nuwe vorme van gene opgebou, wat tot die evolueer van nuwe eienskappe kan lei.

     

  • Kobus de Klerk

    Johan,

    Dit is redelik eenvoudig – darwiniste beheer op die oomblik nog die hoofstroom publikasie media en dit is welbekend dat hulle politiekery nie toelaat dat hulle andersdenkende kollegas ’n kans kry nie. Ek het mos ’n hele artikel met sulke getuienis geplaas dit kan nie ontken word nie.

    Maar, vergeet van Williams as persoon – hanteer sy opinies – as jy meen hy is verkeerd, waarom nie weerleggende getuienis plaas, nie? Só word julle gedurig self om die bos gelei en dan val julle die boodskappers aan inplaas daarvan om met die boodskap te deel – só kan jy reekse briewe plaas om Williams te probeer diskrediteer, maar die boodskap bly staan! Dus, julle probleem word erger deur julle swak pogings om die werklike issue te omseil deur persoonlike aanvalle.

    Stephan,

    Goed en wel, maar wat jy sê, help nie omdat dit nie die kritiek kan weerlê nie – maar inderdaad indirek ondersteun.

    “Dr Christian Schwabe, the non-creationist sceptic of Darwinian evolution from the Medical University of South Carolina (Dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology), wrote: ‘Control genes like homeotic [Hox] genes may be the target of mutations that would conceivably change phenotypes, but one must remember that, the more central one makes changes in a complex system, the more severe the peripheral consequences become. … Homeotic changes induced in Drosophila genes have led only to monstrosities, and most experimenters do not expect to see a bee arise from their Drosophila constructs.’”

    Dus, sentralisme as gevolg van mutasies, wat deur evolusioniste aangeneem word, gebeur nie en sal nie werk nie.

    Dan oorevalueer jy ook die situasie geheel en al – suksesvolle makro-evolusie sou toename vereis van NUWE informasie en NUWE gene wat NUWE proteïene produseer wat dan in NUWE organe en sisteme sou bewerkstellig en daarvoor is daar geen bewys nie.

    Die punt is verder dat ons soortgelyke Hox gene deel met vrugtevlieë en bykans elke ander skepsel op aarde – tog is daar géén bewys vir wat julle te kenne gee met evo devo nie, maar eerder dat die basiese plan de novo geontwerp is om verskeie soorte te dien sodat elke soort sy eie “ontwikkelingsplan” het.

    Wat die kritiek eintlik vir jou te kenne gee, indien jy dit dan nie self kon agterkom nie, is dat die ganse proses geontwerp is om só te werk terwyl daar geen bewys is dat ekstra Hox gene die resultaat van geknutsel is, nie, verál nie “randomized mutation” nie, en dat die ‘geknutsel’ juis geontwerp is om die aanpassing van die draer van die gene te bevoordeel en nie om nuwe eienskappe soos meer bene en langer vingers en meer breine, ens. te ontwikkel nie.

    As só iets vandag gebeur, (Siamese tweelinge, sestoniges, geen arms, geen bene, ens) beskou die mediese wetenskap dit as ’n absolute abnormaliteit en aberrasie – maar sou dit ’n natuurlike evolusionêre proses wees soos julle voorgee, sou daar vry algemeen mense rondloop met varksnoete  of ses arms, soos die afgod of soiets.

    Dus, in jou mitologiese hipotese is jou toevallige, los-en-vas en lukrake evo devo mutasies en seleksies ’n fabelagtige wonderwerker, maar in die werklike lewe is, dit ’n gebreklikheid skepper.

    Mens wonder waarom julle dit nie self kan besef nie…

    Daarom val jou argument plat.

    Kobus de Klerk

  • Kobus, jy of jou google beweer:  The most stunning discovery is that the basic tool kit genes that determine all animal forms were already present at the beginning, 

     
    Gene was teenwoordig by die begin van wat? Is hierdie "beginning" die begin van dierelewe of plantlewe? Dis maar vaag, dink jy nie ook so nie. Die eerste lewe word gereken op 3.8 biljoen jaar gelede (nie op ek kul jou hier ek kul jou daar metode van die Bybel nie, maar gebaseer op navorsing) terwyl die eerste dierelewe eers sy verskyning gemaak het ong. 600 miljoen jaar gelede. Verduidelik asb hoe die aanwesigheid van gene beteken dat mutase nie 'n rol kon speel nie. 
     
    Verder maak jou gegoogelde artikel staat op Intelligente ontwerper. Met 'n IO word natuurlik God bedoel. Is dit dieselfde God as die God van die Bybel? Of is julle te skaam om te sê?
     
    As julle wetenskaplik wil wees, moet daar konkrete bewys gelewer word van so 'n ontwerper. Dis onwetenskaplik om te beweer dat God gesê het, en dit is so. Ons moet in die laboratorium gaan toets hoe dit moontlik is dat 'n man se ribbebeen oombliklik in 'n vrou kan verander.
  • Die fantastiese aansprake is soos alreeds gesien al wat in 'n De Klerk-brief verskyn en hierdie is maar net weer die nuutste voorbeeld daarvan:

     
    'Dus, in jou mitologiese hipotese is jou toevallige, los-en-vas en lukrake evo devo mutasies en seleksies ’n fabelagtige wonderwerker, maar in die werklike lewe is, dit ’n gebreklikheid skepper. Mens wonder waarom julle dit nie self kan besef nie… 
     
    Daarom val jou argument plat'.
     
    Heel dramaties, hoe sal De Klerk weet? 
     
    Dit bly die vraag. 
     
    Aanhalings van kreasionis webwerwe gaan jou niks van substansie leer nie. 
     
    Hierdie is dus die norm, selektiewe aanhalings wat geensins die veld onder bespreking werklik in diepte behandel nie. Shubin het die antwoord op bogenoemde onsin: 

     
    Tetrapods include cows, people, birds, rodents and so on. In other words, the potential for making fingers, hands and feet, crucial innovations used in emerging from the water to a life of walking and crawling on land, appears to have been present in fish, long before they began flip-flopping their way out of the muck. 
     
    “The genetic tools to build fingers and toes were in place for a long time,” Dr. Shubin wrote in an e-mail message. 
     
    “Lacking were the environmental conditions where these structures would be useful.” He added, “Fingers arose when the right environments arose.”
     
     
  • Hello, 

     
    Hierdie is bedoel vir Angus, Stephan, Johan, Chris et al. 
     
    Die volgende is uit 'n uitgawe van die New York Times wat 'n spesiale uitgawe oor evolusie in 2007 publiseer het. (10 gratis artikels is beskikbaar vir lesers wat nie ingeskryf is op die New York Times). 
     
    Met daardie bepreking word die volgende dus geplaas. 
     
    Alhoewel De Klerk na Nature et verwys, is dit verseker dat die volleidge artikel nie in oorweging gebring is en slegs die gedeelte wat die kreasionis en kreasionis De Klerk se wanvoorstellings aanspreek, gelig is.
     
     Een van die artikels van die spesiale uitgawe speek evo-devo aan: 
     
    Daar is alreeds kommentaar van Shubin geplaas wat die retoriek van 'fabelagtige wonderwerker' aanspreek. 
     
    Die inleiding: 
     
    Since its humble beginnings as a single cell, life has evolved into a spectacular array of shapes and sizes, from tiny fleas to towering Tyrannosaurus rex, from slow-soaring vultures to fast-swimming swordfish, and from modest ferns to alluring orchids.
     
    How do a functional wing sprout where none had grown before, or how flowers could blossom in what had been a flowerless world — has remained one of the most fascinating questions in evolutionary biology.
     
    Scientists are finding answers coming fast and furious and from the field known as evo-devo. 
     
    Just coming into its own as a science, evo-devo is the combined study of evolution and development, the process by which a nubbin of a fertilized egg transforms into a full-fledged adult. And what these scientists are finding is that development, have been one of the major forces shaping the history of life on earth.
     
    Hierdie is 'n voorbeeld van die hoe dit plaasvind:
     
    In one of the most exciting of the new studies, a team of scientists led by Dr. Cliff Tabin, a developmental biologist at Harvard Medical School, investigated a classic example of evolution by natural selection, the evolution of Darwin’s finches on the Galápagos Islands.
     
    Like the other organisms that made it to the remote archipelago off the coast of Ecuador, Darwin’s finches have flourished in their isolation, evolving into many and varied species. 
     
    While the finches bear his name and while Darwin was indeed inspired to thoughts of evolution by animals on these islands, the finches left him flummoxed. 
     
    Darwin did not realize for quite some time that these birds were all finches or even that they were related to one another.
     
    For while the species are descendants of an original pioneering finch, they no longer bear its characteristic short, slender beak, which is excellent for hulling tiny seeds. In fact, the finches no longer look very finchlike at all. 
     
    Adapting to the strange new foods of the islands, some have evolved taller, broader, more powerful nut-cracking beaks; the most impressive of the big-beaked finches is Geospiza magnirostris. 
     
    Other finches have evolved longer bills that are ideal for drilling holes into cactus fruits to get at the seeds; 
     
    Geospiza conirostris is one species with a particularly elongated beak.But how could such bills evolve from a simple finch beak? 
     
    Evo-devo has confirmed that getting a fancy new beak is simpler than anyone had imagined.
     
    Genes are stretches of DNA that can be switched on so that they will produce molecules known as proteins. 
     
    Proteins can then do a number of jobs in the cell or outside it, working to make parts of organisms, switching other genes on and so on. 
     
    When genes are switched on to produce proteins, they can do so at a low level in a limited area or they can crank out lots of protein in many cells.
     
    What Dr. Tabin and colleagues found, when looking at the range of beak shapes and sizes across different finch species, was that the thicker and taller and more robust a beak, the more strongly it expressed a gene known as BMP4 early in development. 
     
    The BMP4 gene (its abbreviation stands for bone morphogenetic protein, No. 4) produces the BMP4 protein, which can signal cells to begin producing bone. BMP4 is multifunctional and can also act to direct early development, laying out a variety of architectural plans including signaling which part of the embryo is to be the backside and which the belly side. 
     
    To verify that the BMP4 gene itself could indeed trigger the growth of grander, bigger, nut-crushing beaks, researchers artificially cranked up the production of BMP4 in the developing beaks of chicken embryos. 
     
    The chicks began growing wider, taller, more robust beaks similar to those of a nut-cracking finch.In the finches with long, probing beaks, researchers found at work a different gene, known as calmodulin. 
     
    As with BMP4, the more that calmodulin was expressed, the longer the beak became. When scientists artificially increased calmodulin in chicken embryos, the chicks began growing extended beaks, just like a cactus driller.
     
    With just these two genes, the scientists found the potential to recreate beaks, massive or stubby or elongated.
     
    BMP4’s reach does not stop at the birds, however.
     
    In lakes in Africa, the fish known as cichlids have evolved so rapidly into such a huge diversity of species that they have become one of the best known evolutionary radiations. 
     
    The cichlids have evolved in different shapes and sizes, and with a variety of jaw types specialized for eating certain kinds of food. 
     
    Robust, thick jaws are excellent at crushing snails, while longer jaws work well for sucking up algae. 
     
    As with the beaks of finches, a range of styles developed.Now in a new study, Dr. R. Craig Albertson, an evolutionary biologist at Syracuse University, and Dr. Thomas D. Kocher, a geneticist at the University of New Hampshire, have shown that more robust-jawed cichlids express more BMP4 during development than those with more delicate jaws. 
     
    To test whether BMP4 was indeed responsible for the difference, these scientists artificially increased the expression of BMP4 in the zebrafish, the lab rat of the fish world. And, reprising the beak experiments, researchers found that increased production of BMP4 in the jaws of embryonic zebrafish led to the development of more robust chewing and chomping parts.
     
    And if being a major player in the evolution of African cichlids and Darwin’s finches — two of the most famous evolutionary radiations of species — were not enough for BMP4, Dr. Peter R. Grant, an evolutionary biologist at Princeton University, indicated that the gene would probably be found to play an important role in the evolution of still other animals. 
     
    He noted that jaw changes were a crucial element in the evolution of lizards, rabbits and mice, among others, making them prime candidates for evolution via BMP4.
     
    “This is just the beginning,” Dr. Grant said. 
     
    “These are exciting times for us all.”Used to lay out body plans, build beaks and alter fish jaws, 
     
    BMP4 illustrates perfectly one of the major recurring themes of evo-devo. 
     
    New forms arise via new uses of existing genes, in particular the control genes or what are sometimes called toolkit genes that oversee development. This explain much, like the observation that without much obvious change to the genome over all, one can get fairly radical changes in form.
     
     
  • As aanvulling tot Stephan Marcus se opdatering: 

     
    Hierdie is 'n program waarna ek op gereelde basis verwys en weer sal hethaal. Dit is die program van die BBC se In our Time wat mutasie bespreek en hier gevind kan word: 
     
     
    Die deelnemers is: 
     
    Steve Jones, Professor of Genetics in the Galton Laboratory, University College London; 
     
    Adrian Woolfson, lectures in Medicine at Cambridge University; 
     
    Linda Partridge, Weldon Professor of Biometry at University College London 
     
    Gewone styl, oormatig dramaties skryf De Klerk die volgende: 
     
    As só iets vandag gebeur (Siamese tweelinge, sestoniges, geen arms, geen bene, ens) beskou die mediese wetenskap dit as ’n absolute abnormaliteit en aberrasie – maar sou dit ’n natuurlike evolusionêre proses wees soos julle voorgee, sou daar vry algemeen mense rondloop met varksnoete  of ses arms, soos die afgod of soiets. Dus, in jou mitologiese hipotese is jou toevallige, los-en-vas en lukrake evo devo mutasies en seleksies ’n fabelagtige wonderwerker, maar in die werklike lewe is, dit ’n gebreklikheid skepper. Mens wonder waarom julle dit nie self kan besef nie… Daarom val jou argument plat.
     
    Dit is duidelik dat De Klerk, net soos Tant Alie en Oupa nie na die lys van programme gaan luister het wat daar met soveel moeite vir die kreasioniste en ontwerpers saamgestel is. 
     
    Steve Jones beskryf mutasie as foute in "copying process" van genetiese materiaal, terwyl evolusie weer beskryf word as die produk van suksesvolle mutasies en dui hy ook aan dat die proses konstant hardloop en dat in die loop van die 45 minute program daar honderd duisende mutasies in die genoom afspeel. Die meerderheid sal die draer van volkome onbewus wees, 'n magdom van die mutasies sal egter ook korrigeer word, alhoewel daar 'n hoeveelheid is wat sal deurglip en uiteindelik tot siekte en die dood sal lei. 
     
    Dit word aangedui dat die manlike geslag meer mutasies "skep" as gevolg van die testes en die produksie van sperm. 
     
    Adriaan Woolfson bespreek dan hoekom die scenario nie uitspeel soos onkundige De Klerk hier bo dramaties beskryf het. 
     
    Die inligting wat vorm gee word instand gehou en aangegee na volgende generasies. Dit is hoekom mense byvoorbeeld altyd in menslike vorm sal wees en nie die drogbeelde soos hier bo beskryf. Die informasie is digitaal van aard in die DNS en indien daar wel skade is kan 'n alternatiewe roete gevolf word omrede DNS "double-stranded" is en dan op daardie manier die foute herstel. 
     
    Ook is die proses robuust genoeg aangesien die ensieme wat die replikasie doen 'n metode van "proofreading" volg wat weereens die meerderheid van die foute korrigeer. 
     
    Woolfson verwys dan ook na DNA repair ensymes wat deur die dag foute korrigeer wat deur mutasie geskep is. 
     
    Omrede daar 'n inherente beperking is i.v..m die tempo van mutasies word die integriteit van die data beskerm en ontaard dit nie in die drogbeelde wat die oningeligte daar wil stel nie, en so weer 'n ruimte probeer skep vir 'n ontwerper. 
     
    Bogenoemde is ongeveer die eerste 8 minute van die program is daar weereens meer detail. 
     
      
  • Kobus

    Alex Williams vertel onwaarhede oor gene, dis genoeg om nie eens verder na sy leuens te bespreek nie. Mens kan dit verwag van 'n man met 'n graad in botanie, 'n meestersgraad in radio-ekologie en geen opleiding in enigiets te doen met gene nie, maar maak of hy alles weet.

    Alex Williams: " Neo- Darwinists say that mutations in (protein-coding) genes control inheritance. But Evo Devo shows that it is the switching cascade that controls inheritance ... That is, control begins with the mother organism and the mother egg cell, not with the genes."

    Onwaar. Kontrole gebeur in die gene. Die "switching-cascade" gebeur in die gene.

    Nie die moeite werd om enigiets verder van sy kant af te lees nie. Hy praat nie die waarheid nie. 

    Kleinkoos 

  • Ek sien ou Kobus quote mine Christian Schwabe ook: 

     

    Vanaf   http://lasciencecoalition.org/2008/09/27/explore-evolution/ oor Christian Schwabe:

    "Another PhD the authors found is Christian Schwabe, who apparently has established a career studying a protein called reflexin, along with its relatives. But every couple of years he publishes a paper in which he argues in favor of his belief that the genomes of all modern and extinct species originated during the formation of life billions of years ago. According to Schwabe, those genomes have continued to exist, hidden underground as stem cell-like entities. Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal. No, I am not making this up.

    This isn’t simply evidence-free (although it is); it’s borderline deranged. And yet, in the hands of Discovery’s authors, it becomes a serious scientific controversy about the existence of the tree of life. . . ."

    Kleinkoos

  • Kobus de Klerk

    Is dit nie verspot nie - papegaaie wat reeks op reeks fabelgatige hipotese hier plaas - asof ons nie genoeg daarvan gesien het, nie. Veral Wouter kry heeltemal vaartrukkings - dit is nie vir my nodig om alles weer te herhaal nie.

    Ag, Kleinkoos - jy het net een refrein - "so-en-so vertel leuens". Dit is omdat leuens jou lewensfilosofie uitmaak dat dit al is waarop jou verwysingsraamwerk funsioneer.

    Gaan oefen jou sinnelose refrein nou op n ander plek.

    Niemend steur hulle aan julle nie - daar is 'n geweldige beweging wat teen darwinisme tot stand kom. En daar is niks wat julle daaraan kan doen nie.

    Refrein, papegaai en kerm soos jul wil. Julle religie is op die rand van sy graf.

    Kobus de Klerk

  • Natuurlik, alles tot op datum is nog net  quote mining. 

     
    Ek het nog nooit soveel tyd op die webwerwe van kreasioniste deur gebring nie om die onsin van De Klerk te op te soek. 
     
    Dit was in die begin grootliks "Genesispark"
     
    Nou sien ek dit is Creation.com, Creasionists.org en die ou gewone een, answersingenesis.org en kan ook dopgehou word. 
     
    Die kreasioniste, ontwerpers, koek maar gewoonlik saam en word bogenoemde webwerwe uitgewys as die "top sites" op Google.
     
     
  • Kobus de Klerk

    Steve Jones praat oorwegend snert.

    Julle kan steeds nie onderskei tussen feit en hipotese nie en só bied julle net meer en meer skietgoed téén julle.

    Wouter se gebabbel – “Since its humble beginnings as a single cell, life has evolved into a spectacular array of shapes and sizes, from tiny fleas to towering Tyrannosaurus rex, from slow-soaring vultures to fast-swimming swordfish, and from modest ferns to alluring orchids” – onbewysbare religieuse filosofiese grondhipotese. Dit is die grondslag, want vandaar word alle biologiese feite geneem en met behulp van nóg hipotese, geforseer gemaak pas binne-in die raamwerk van die grondhipotese.

    Voorbeeld: Feit - “a [nubbin] of a fertilized egg transforms into a full-fledged adult. And what these scientists are finding is that development, have been one of the major forces shaping the history of life on earth.” Ons veronderstel die ‘nubbin’ verwys na die klein eiersel, want dit is die eiersel wat tot volwassenheid ontwikkel en nie ’n res daarvan, nie…

    Hipotese: “Just coming into its own as a science, evo-devo is the combined study of evolution and development, the process by which …” Geen bewys dáárvoor nie, sal ook nooit vind nie.

    Let op

    “In neo-Darwinian theory, genes produce organisms, and mutations in genes produce new kinds of organisms. HOWEVER, In facilitated variation theory, genes are used by cells to construct organisms, and mutations in genes are used by cells to produce variations in progeny. The crucial difference between the theories is the central role of the cell, rather than the genes, in producing the organism.” ’n Veel meer werkbare verklaring vir wat gebeur.

    Dan die volgende: “Neo-Darwinists view heredity as being all about genetics. But genetics is all about change and we have discovered so many ways in which organisms can change that we are now faced with a huge unanswered question: how do they manage to stay (approximately) the same, generation after generation? As the late Stephen Jay Gould maintained throughout his career in paleontology—stasis, not change, is the major feature of natural history. Neo-Darwinism has no answer to this challenge for two reasons: (a) genes and chromosomes can be mutated at any and every position so there is no limit to the potential for change, and (b) the agents of change (mutations and environment) are beyond the organism’s control.”

    “In the classic case of Darwin’s Galápagos finches, neo-Darwinian theory explains the variation in finch beak size and shape via mutations and natural selection acting repeatedly over a long period of time. Many small changes must occur independently in the upper and lower beaks, in the adjacent skull, and in the head muscles, to coordinate and order them all into the necessarily viable intermediate beaks of the birds that need to survive throughout the period of divergence. In contrast, recent experimental work suggests that just two regulatory changes are involved. The bone morphology protein BMP4 when expressed earlier or later in embryogenesis causes broad or narrow beak development, and more or less of the calcium regulator proteïen calmodulin produces long or short beaks, respectively. Gerhart and Kirschner cite this as experimental validation of their theory. The whole craniofacial developmental process is compartmented and coordinated by a modular regulatory system that can be easily rewired ‘with a few regulatory mutations’ to produce new features that are readily integrated into the already-prepared, robust, conservedcore- process-based system. Field observations confirm that such changes take place rapidly across just a few generations”

    Hoe bied dié gegewens enige ondersteuning vir evo devo? Wat het intra spesifieke ontwikkeling en aanpassing, soos met die BMP4 proses aangedui, vinke wat sterker snawels groei, visse wat sterker kake ontwikkel? Vinke bly vinke, visse bly visse en een verander nie in die ander nie, te doen met die fabelagtige “a single cell, life has evolved into a spectacular array of shapes and sizes, from tiny fleas to towering Tyrannosaurus rex, from slow-soaring vultures to fast-swimming swordfish, and from modest ferns to alluring orchids”grondhipotese van darwinistiese evolusie? Hoegenaamd niks! Daarvoor is daar stééds géén bewys nie, net knoeiwerk met fossiele.

    So van ‘toolkit genes’ gepraat, ‘control genes’ – daar is juis skaars ’n meer gepaste voorbeeld van IO… neem enige feitelike voorbeeld waarop evo-devo hipoteties geskoei word, stroop die evo-devo hipotese (mitologie) en daar het jy uitstekende voorbeelde van IO.

    Maar die arme spul kletteraars – dit is nou julle - is só deurmekaar met hulle eie geknoei, dat hulle nie eens meer agterkom hoe hulle gekletter al meer en meer bewyse vir IO en kreasionisme oplewer, nie.

    Die fabelagtige bewering dat lukrake gene duplisering (hoe anders verduidelik darwiniste dat eenvoudige organismes geëvolueer het tot komplekse soorte, soos mense, diere, plante) ‘new forms’ laat ontstaan is hersenskim – inteendeel - daar word gesê dat down se sindroom, byvoorbeeld,  die gevolg is van lukrake duplisering van gene…

    Kom skryf nog, álles wat julle voorsit, kan aan flarde geskeur word of as bevestiging van kreasionisme en IO gebruik word!

    Kom Wouter, papegaai nog vir ons lukraak, toe!

    Kobus de Klerk

  • Kobus de Klerk

    Is dit nie komieklik in die parodie hier, dat die ‘deranged, die versteurde, in die gestig (die darwinis wat glo aan die onsinnige onbewysbare fabels wat hy verkondig, asof dit realiteit is) op die stoep staan en vinger wys na ander, wat na bewering bewerings maak wat nie bewys kan word nie, soos Christian Schwabe en dan die ánder, ‘deranged’ noem? Is dit nie ook skandelik, dat die darwinis nie die vermoë het om sy eie ‘derangement’ te kan eien nie, maar gou is om ’n ander, véél minder ‘deranged’ en tog moontlik meer bewysbare hipotese te wil afmaak, asof hy in ’n beter posisie is, nie?

    Maar dit is daardie selfdesepsie van die agnostikus, wat so met hom parte speel, dat hy nie sy eie fatale swakhede kan insien nie. Ten minste het Schwabe die alledaagse bekende absoluut natuurlike voorbeeld van sade wat vir jare onder die barre grond en stof kan lê asof dit dood is en leweloos vertoon, totdat die geskikte omstandighede ontstaan en dan asof uit die dood, ontkiem en welig groei. Daarom is sy hipotese hoegenaamd nie so vêrgesog as die versteurde darwinis wat glo dat ’n oer organiese repliseerder sommer so uit ‘luck’ en ‘magic’ ontstaan uit anorganiese materie en dan met onmeetbaar méér ‘luck’ en ‘magic’ intelligensieloos lukraak ontwikkel tot ’n gewriemel van diverse lewe waarvan die eenvoudigste komponente net met die insette van gesofistikeerde toerusting en kollektiewe intelligensie van baie mense, oor verloop van baie jare, uitgesorteer kan word en in die hele tyd, nog net een keer, in die vorm van ’n genoom, gesintetiseer, word. Nou, dít is ‘deranged’!

    Wat jou insigloosheid oor skakeling in die gene aanbetref, Kleinkoos, kan jy blykbaar nie insien dat die embrio aanvanklik vanaf en uit moeder-sel ontwikkel voordat dit sy eie ‘selfstandige’ DNS ontwikkel, nie. So, wat sê Williams? Hy sê “control begins with the mother organism and the mother egg cell,  not with the genes. This is powerful evidence for creation, not evolution. And  it explains why organisms reproduce according to their kind, as the first  chapter of Genesis tells us

    Let op – “the conserved core processes remain the same during reproduction. When a mother passes on an egg cell to its offspring, that cell contains everything required by the offspring in its architecture and machinery. The DNA sequences provide for the manufacture of more raw materials for the embryo to go through its development process, but the actual architecture and machinery itself is provided by the mother. The new outer membrane of the embryo is just that of the mother’s cell extended with more of the same material. The new cytoskeleton is just the mother’s cytoskeleton extended with new material [etc].  During the early stages of embryogenesis, the new chromosome set is entirely shut down and all the groundwork of the embryo is laid by thousands of different RNA types supplied by the mother. Only after this groundwork is laid does the new chromosome set become active and the mother’s RNAs are degraded and recycled. The variability that is built-in to this heredity process is the modular gene regulation and signaling networks. A suitable analogy might be a house and its network of power, plumbing and communications channels and interfaces. The wiring and piping are built into the house structure, but there are numerous interface points to which a wide variety of household appliances can be attached, detached and rearranged. It is the combination of devices plugged into this network that provides the variation, and the house with its plumbing and wiring system that provides the stasis”.

    Jy kan ook maar oplet, Stephan.

    Jy is nogal reg oor, in jóú besondere geval, die nie-lees van Williams, Kleinkoos, maar jou rede is soos gewoonlik,  verkeerd. Die regte rede is dat Williams Godgegewe intelligensie, insig en wysheid het en sy verduidelikings daarvolgens doen wat perfek logies en sinvol is – dus, jy moet dit nie lees nie, want jy kán dit nie begryp nie, dit is gewoon strata bokant jou begripsvermoë, wat beperk is tot insiglose papegaaiwerk sónder om te verstaan wát jy papegaai.

    Wouter,

    Jou meester Woolfson probeer jou en ander soos jy, oortuig, dat dit wat nié gebeur nie, wel gebeur en dit wat wél gebeur, nie gebeur nie! En jy aan ander soos jy, glo hom. Natuurlik! Julle weet nie van beter nie.

    Maar die feite weerspreek jou insiglose meesters met hulle towerstaffies (daardie fabelagtige hipotese van hulle)  – dié mutasies het negatiewe gevolge en die mediese rekords is getuienis van gebrekkige fisiologie as gevolg daarvan. Die komieklike maar tog tragiese is, dat julle die hipotese neem, soos Woolfson voorhou en dan die werklikheid daarmee wil wegwens – soos met die swaai van ’n verspotte towerstaffie in die fabels – Maar, die werklikheid gee nié pad voor die darwinistiese hipotetiese fabel-towerstaffies nie, dit maak van julle snert ’n absolute klug. En van julle die gekke.

    Darwinisme was te lank deur die proponente daarvan in sy volle gruwelike leuenagtigheid, versteek. Te lankal, het julle akademici dié leuens beskerm deur blatante aggressie en intimidasie, nes die Middeleeuse katolieke gedoen het met die leuens oor die Woord. Maar die Waarheid seëvier áltyd – en soos hulle aan die kaak gestel is, só word die darwinisme in die laaste jare oopgevlek vir die gruwelike bedrogspul wat dit is.

    Skryf nog, dit is héérlik om julle uit te wys en so die bespotlike eie selfopgelegde tekortkominge en geloof in fabelagtig snert uit te lig – verál jy en Wouter, Kleinkoos, met jou aan die voorpunt dusvêr.  

    Kobus de Klerk  

  • 'n Nota: 

     
    Die volgende word aangebied uit 'n opstel van "my argiewe": 
     
    Hierdie is om te bevestig dat die uitsonderings en die skokkende gevolge van daardie uitsonderings aan my bekend is en het oorweeg om dit eerder te plaas tesame met die opdatering wat na Woolfson verwys het. Die aanname van my kant af is altyd dat die leser bekend is met die uitsonderings. Indien elke aspek aangspreek moet word, dan word daar nou so gedoen. 
     
    Hierdie is die werk van Professor of Evolutionary Developmental Biology, Imperial College; Author, Mutants:
     
    This raises a question: what exactly is a mutant? 
     
    Worm biologists and fly biologists—geneticists generally, working on model organisms—use the word "mutant" in a very particular way. In worms and flies there is an arbitrarily defined strain which we call the "wild type". 
     
    But in humans there is no arbitrary wild type. 
     
    So can you, in fact, speak of mutant humans? 
     
    You can, but the definition of what is a mutant in humans is necessarily more roundabout. 
     
    This is because we have such an extraordinary amount of natural variation in our species. 
     
    If you go around the world you see tall people, short people, red-haired people, brown-haired people, people with curly hair, people with no hair, and so on. Given all this variation, what exactly, and who exactly, is a mutant? 
     
    It's an important question, because to say something is a mutant is in fact to make an invidious distinction. 
     
    This is to say something is not just different but actually abnormal in some fashion. Yet despite the fact that there is so much variation in our species, it is actually possible to speak in a coherent way of mutations and of mutants in humans. 
     
    Roughly, the reason you can do this is as follows: 
     
    If you look at the coding sequence, more precisely, the protein sequence produced by any given gene, it's the case that for most genes nearly everybody has the same version. True, there are some genes that are polymorphic — variable — and these are genes that give us all our natural diversity. 
     
    But they actually constitute a very small fraction of the genome. 
     
    Most people have the same functional version of a gene. 
     
    Given that fact, you can define a mutant as somebody who has a rare variant of a gene, moreover, a variant that harms him in some fashion. And if you look at it that way, it's clear that we all carry rare variants that do us harm in some way, and that we are in fact all mutants. 
     
    We can even put some numbers on this. 
     
    One of the really surprising results in recent years, which comes from the comparison of the genomes of different species, is that every newborn child carries three novel deleterious mutations, that is, mutations that its parents didn't have. 
     
    Not only that, but each child inherits at least some of the mutations that its parents have as well. It's estimated then — and of course this is just an estimate — that every newly conceived person has something like 300 mutations that affect its health for the worse in some fashion. 
     
    Of course, that number doesn't tell us a whole lot. We not only need to know about the number of mutations that we have, but also the distribution of their effects. This is because some mutations have very severe effects. 
     
    They are the mutations that cause the big known inherited diseases — and about 10,000 such diseases have been identified so far. But there must be many, many more mutations that do us harm, but only subtly so. 
     
    These are the mutations that give us weak eyes, bad backs and the like. These are mutations that we know very little about but that statistically speaking must be there. It's actually in these mutations that a lot of human health lies—or rather the absence of human health lies. 
     
    At least it does once you have gotten rid of the contagious diseases.
     
    When I speak of mutations that do somebody harm what I really mean is not so much that they just affect physiological health; what I really mean is they affect the Darwinian fitness, the probability that they will reproduce. 
     
    It's an evolutionary definition. It's the kind of definition that can encompass an enormous range of impairments, and the kinds of impairments that you see that are caused by mutations are at times of a degree and of a form that you really just cannot conceive of. 
     
    If you go to teratology museums—literally "monstrosity museums"—in places such as Amsterdam and Philadelphia, you can see rows of babies in bottles. These infants, usually stillborn, are deformed in ways that are truly hideous, that really represent the kinds of monstrosities that you might expect from Greek myth. 
     
    I mean this quite literally. They include children born with a single eye in the middle of their forehead, and who look exactly like the monsters of Greek myth—Polyphemus in The Odyssey, for example. Indeed, it's sometimes suggested that the monsters of Greek myth were inspired by deformed children, and this seems to be a fairly remarkable correspondence, at least with some of them. 
     
    These infants, when you see them, are truly horrific. 
     
    But very quickly, after you look at them, a sort of intellectual fascination takes over because it's clear that these children tell us something very deep about how the human body is built. 
     
    Take, for instance, these children with a single eye in the middle of their foreheads. 
     
    The syndrome is called, appropriately, Cyclopia. Cyclopia is caused by a deficiency in a gene called Sonic hedgehog. Sonic hedgehog is named after a fruit fly gene which when mutated causes bristles to sprout all over the fruit fly larva, hence "hedgehog". 
     
    When the gene was found in mammals, some wit called it Sonic hedgehog after the video game character. If you get rid of this gene, bad things happen. 
     
    You lose your arms beneath the elbow and legs beneath the knee. The face collapses in on itself, such that you get a single eye in the middle of the forehead and the rest of the face collapses into a long, trunk-like proboscis. 
     
    The forebrain, which is normally divided such that we have a left and a right brain—the left and right cerebral hemispheres—is fused into a single unitary structure. Indeed the technical name for this syndrome is called Holoprosencephaly.
     
    Now all this is very horrible, and actually that's just an initial list of things that can go wrong in infants that have no Sonic hedgehog. 
     
    But what's really interesting about it is that by looking at infants of this sort you can reverse-engineer and ask what Sonic hedgehog does in the embryo. 
     
    Instantly it tells you that one of the things that Sonic hedgehog does is to keep our eyes apart because if you don't have the gene the face collapses. 
     
    It also separates the left and and right sides of our brains. And it's needed for the formation of our arms and legs. In fact, it is one of the most ubiquitous and powerful molecules in the making of our bodies. And other, more subtle mutations, tell more about it. 
     
    For example, just as having too little Sonic hedgehog causes the face to collapse in upon itself, having too much causes it to expand. 
     
    I was recently in San Francisco, in Jill Helms's lab at the University of California, San Francisco, where she's got a jar containing the head of a pig. Or is it two pigs? It's just not clear since the jar contains a pig with two faces, two snouts, two tongues, two throats, and three eyes. It's not a Siamese twin pig; it's just a pig with two faces. 
     
    Chickens and pigs with two faces crop up periodically, as indeed do humans with two faces, or nearly two faces. 
     
    There's a syndrome in which you have eyes that are very widely spaced from each other, and in which the nose becomes duplicated. You have two noses side by side in two varying degrees of development. The gene for this syndrome has recently been cloned, and guess what? 
     
    It turns out to be the gene that controls Sonic hedgehog, and that, in fact, switches it off. People with the syndrome have too much Sonic hedgehog just as infants with Cyclopia have too little. So by looking at a range of these kinds of syndromes you can put together a very complete picture of how a gene like Sonic hedgehog controls one particular feature of us, the width of our faces. 
     
    It's a very mundane thing that you'd hardly think about, but that seems to be controlled by this genetic system.
     
    There are many other disorders that equally informative. 
     
    The star at the Mütter Museum at the College of Physicians of Philadelphia is Harry Eastlack, a man who had a disease called Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva. 
     
    It's a disorder in which supernumerary bones form. The Mütter Museum has his skeleton, which he donated at the time of his death when he was in his forties. 
     
    The skeleton is essentially not one man's skeleton—it is, as it were, one skeleton encased in another. What happens in this disorder is that wherever you get a bruise or a wound, instead of normal cells moving in to regenerate the skin and the flesh and heal the wound, bone forms. So every bruise turns to bone. The kids are born relatively normal, but as they go through life bone accretes all over them such that they can no longer move. They become rigid, locked into place. You can cut it away, of course, but as soon as you make an incision, and that incision heals, more bone forms. So it's a vicious circle. We don't know which gene is mutated in this syndrome. But it's almost certainly got something to do with bone morphogenetic protein, a protein that is, as the name suggests, normally involved in making bone in infants. 
     
    It's just that in most of us this gene switches off. In these people this protein keeps on being produced throughout life, especially when there's a wound. 
     
    It's another marvelous instance of how a given mutation can tell us something important about how bones are formed. 
     
    FOP is a very rare disorder, and the reason why the gene hasn't been cloned is because to identify genes, to clone genes, you need to have big pedigrees. At least it helps. But these people just never have children.
     
    People sometimes ask what developmental biology is good for. We can identify genes that are responsible for making this or that part of the human body. But in humans, of course, there's a very pressing question: 
     
    namely, how can you fix the deleterious consequences of these mutations? 
     
    It's one thing to go into a clinical genetics ward, a pediatric ward, and study kids who are seriously deformed, and say, "This is just terribly interesting. Your son is highly informative about the function of the Jagged-2 gene." — but that's not a great deal of comfort to the parents who actually have to deal with raising children who are variously deformed and may die or, at the very least, have to undergo a great deal of surgery. 
     
    That, of course, is the problem. 
     
    The molecular biology is beautiful, but when it actually comes to curing people, you just have surgery — which is little more than a rather sophisticated form of butchery.
     
    The great promise, of course—and it's been a promise for years now and will remain so for some time—is that by learning about what genes do and how organs and tissues are constructed we can reconstruct them as we wish. B
     
    y working out the program we can take cells, put them in a test-tube, and rebuild tissues. 
     
    You don't have cartilage in your larynx? 
     
    We can build it for your child, and we can fix it. 
     
    You don't have a breast? 
     
    We can rebuild that, too. And so on. 
     
    This is a whole new area called tissue engineering. 
     
  • Kobus de Klerk

    Dankie vir die ondersteuning, Wouter, want sans die hipotese (dit is duidelik jy kan nie hipotese van werklikheid, feit, onderskei nie), is dit maar wat ek ook gesê het. Jy sien, vir julle is dit die hipotese wat die verligting vir julle bring, maar, dit is vals gerusstelling - 'n hipotese is juis so omdat daar geen bewys voor is, nie. Omtrent geeneen van die essensiële hipotese waarop Charles Darwin sy religie gebou het, is bewys nie - inteendeel, dit is afgeskiet.

    Kan julle 'n enkele  oorspronklike essensiële darwinistiese hipotese noem wat sy hipotese status verloor het, omdat dit werklik empiries bewys is? Niemand sal asem ophou nie. Daar is, na anderhalf eeu se gespook, nie soiets nie - net nog die oorspronklike religie maar wat besig is om ook van binne af 'n totale gedaantewisseling te ondergaan.

    Kobus de Klerk

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