Vir Cornelius oor nog steeds ras

  • 43

Beste Cornelius,

So, volgens jou opmerking onderaan my brief, verkeer ek in ’n “erge waan” en dan vra jy my om weer te lees. Goed, ek lees weer wat jy getik het.

Jy tik: “Anders as die kreasioniste (asook Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels), onderskei ek op geen grond tussen mens en dier rakende die omskrywing van enige biologiese aspek nie - ook nie ras nie."

Hieruit verstaan ek die volgende:

1. Kreasioniste maak biologies ’n onderskeid tussen mens en dier. (Dis waar. Hulle beweer God het mens en dier, elkeen na sy soort geskape.)

2. Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels – ek is seker een van hulle – maak biologies ’n onderskeid tussen mens en dier. (Dis ook waar. Ons beweer dat kruis-teling of verbastering nie tussen mens en dier kan plaasvind nie, want is hulle behoort tot verskillende spesies.)

3. Dit veronderstel dat Kreasioniste ’n biologiese onderskeid maak tussen rasse. (Dis waar. Hulle meen dat God elke ras apart geskape het.)

4. Dit veronderstel dat Richard Dawkins, en sy dissipels (dis nou ek ook) ’n biologiese onderskeid maak tussen rasse. (Dis nie waar nie. Richard Dawkins sê juis dat ras nie definieerbaar is nie. Hy en ook ek, gee toe dat daar wel genetiese verskille tussen rasse is, maar daar is ook genetiese verskille tussen mense.)

5. Cornelius sien dit anders, dus onderskei hy nie biologies tussen mens en dier nie. (Hierop kan ek nie kommentaar lewer nie, want ek het nog nooit vantevore, soos wat ek kan onthou, sy mening hieroor gehoor nie.)

6. Cornelius onderskei nie biologies tussen rasse nie. (Dis ’n leuen. Cornelius se standpunt was juis dat daar biologies ’n onderskeid tussen rasse is. Hy het so ver gegaan om Dawkins en my van boewery te beskuldig omdat ons meen “ras” is ’n sosiale konstruk.

Nou gee Cornelius sy eie interpretasie van aangehaalde sin:

Daarmee bedoel ek ook dat nes ras by diere bepaal word, ek ras by mense logies bepaal - ongeag die kamstige politieke korrekte vereiste en onderdrukking daarvan.”

Ewe skielik maak hy nie meer biologies onderskeid tussen rasse nie, maar doen dit volgens die logika. (Plato het mos eens gesê dat die mens ’n superieure ras is, as ek reg kan onthou.)

Cornelius, ek loods geen aanvalle op jou persoon nie, maar as jy ’n onwaarheid kwytraak, sal ek jou daarop wys. Daarmee sien ek niks verkeerd nie. Sou ek iets verdraai, moet my daarop wys, en ek sal dit waardeer. Wat die Genetika betref is ek self onkundig: vandag se kennis is more se ou nuus.

Jy, daarenteen, gaan anders te werk. As ek iets sê waarvan jy nie hou nie, word ek uitgeskel as ’n boef, as verwaand, en iemand wat buite gestaan en rook het terwyl die klas aan die gang was. Ek wonder wie loods persoonlike aanvalle op wie? En as daar ewe skielik terug moddergegooi word, wie skree eerste Eina!?

Ek dag jy het buitendien mos al die saak van kundigheid by ons twee opgelos: ek het my kennis van genetika in die huishoudkundeklas opgedoen, terwyl jy Biologie met ’n studie van Mendel, matriek geslaag het.

Jou rasseklassifikasie volgens Coon is nogal interessant. Coon was eintlik bekend as een van die baanbrekers van die Antropologie; ’n bioloog was hy dus nie. Ek het gedink jou klassifikasie sal op biologiese grondslae berus. Jy het mos volgehou dat ras biologies definieerbaar is. 9en ek wag tevergeefs op daardie biologiese definisie.)

Jou stelling: “Homo sapiens, kom uit die paragenese van verskeie hominele genusse oor millennia en van oral op ons aarde heen - nie net Afrika nie!”, het jy, volgens jou verduideliking en die skakel wat jy daarby gee, nie mooi oor gedink nie.  Ek tel agt Homo spesies, en daar kon onmoontlik teling tussen hulle plaasgevind het. Homo habilis(2.3-1.4 miljoen jaar gelede), Homo ergaster(1.8-1.3 miljoen jaar gelede), Homo rudulfensis (1.9 miljoen jaar gelede), was al fossiele toe Homo neanderthalensis (230-29 duisend jaar gelede) en Homo sapiens hulle verskyning gemaak het. Jou skakel het te make met die verdrywing van die Neanderdaller deur Homo sapiens, en die moontlike inteling wat plaasgevind het, want daar bestaan die denkwyse dat ons Neanderdalbloed in ons are het.

Lede van die haplogroep R was die eerste setlaars uit Afrika wat Europa binnegedring het. Hulle word gedefinieer deur die Y-chromosoom M173 wat saam met die M237-draers getrek het. Spoedig na hulle intrek, het die Neanderdal-era tot ’n einde gekom. Homo heidelbergensis kan moontlik ’n voorouer wees van die Neanderdal, en dan is daar nog Homo floresiensis, en Homo erectus. Waar jy egter aan “van oral op ons aarde heen” kry, sal net jy kan sê. Nee, die spoor van die Y-chromosoom merkers en die mitochondria dui beslis dat Afrika die beginpunt was. Buitendien, die fossiele van Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo rudolfensis, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis is in Afrika gevind. Homo floresiensis is in Indonesië ontdek terwyl Homo neanderthalensis in Europa gekry is. “Van oral op die aarde heen”? Nog so nooit as te nimmer nie.

Dan tik jy iets vir my heel onverstaanbaar:

“Jou miskenning van die teling van mense aan die hand van die Bybel, is ook net so belaglik soos jy en die heer Dawkins se veronderstelling dat die mens uit 'n Adam en Eva stam. Selfs Apartheid en Afrikaner Nasionalisme se rassisme was 'n gelsag of wat op die Bybel geskoei!”

Wees asseblief meer spesifiek wat my “miskenning van die teling van mense aan die hand van die Bybel” betref. Wie in die Bybel het met mense geteel?  En ek sal graag wil weet waar jy daaraan kom dat ek en Dawkins dink die mens stam uit Adam en Eva. Die navorsers verwys na die haplogroepe met Y-chromosoom as Adam, en die haplogroepe met mtDNA as Eva, maar dit wil nie sê enigeen van hulle het met slange gepraat en verkeerde vrugte geëet nie. Was die paradys nie tussen die Tigris- en die Eufraatriviere nie? Is jy nie bietjie deurmekaar nie?

Afrikaner Nasionalisme se rassisme was wel op die Bybel geskoei, dit is waar, maar jy is mos daarmee eens. As Dawkins sê die mens is een spesie en ras is nie definieerbaar nie, dan maak jy mos heftig beswaar en beweer dat daar ’n duidelike onderskeid tussen rasse is. Dis mos pure apartheid by jou.

Groete,

Angus

  • 43

Kommentaar

  • En nou net om die saak verder te vertroebel, is daar selfs in die Vatikaan al 'n mening uitgespreek dat
    die vertaling ten opsigte van die skepping van die mens in Genesis verkeerd is, omdat daar 'n meervoudsvorm gebruik word in die oorspronklike taal.

    Dit behoort dus in Engels te lees ":And god created humanity-'Adam and Eve' male and female He created them."
    Dus vrylik in Afrikaans vertaal behoort dit te lees :"En God het die mensdom geskep ,'Adam en Eva',manlik en vroulik het Hy hulle geskep.".

  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Angus,

     

    So, volgens jou opmerkinge in  jou brief, kom ek jou glo vreeslik te na. Goed, ek lees wat jy getik het.  

     

    (begin van aanhaling)

     

    Jy tik: “Anders as die kreasioniste (asook Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels), onderskei ek op geen grond tussen mens en dier rakende die omskrywing van enige biologiese aspek nie - ook nie ras nie." Hieruit verstaan ek [Angus] die volgende:

     

    1. Kreasioniste maak biologies ’n onderskeid tussen mens en dier. (Dis waar. Hulle beweer God het mens en dier, elkeen na sy soort geskape.)  

     

     

    [Meer nog Angus; hulle beweer die mens het 'n siel en diere nie - diere kan na iets aards soos ras omskryf word, mense glo nie]

     

     

    2. Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels – ek [Angus] is seker een van hulle – maak biologies ’n onderskeid tussen mens en dier. (Dis ook waar. Ons beweer dat kruis-teling of verbastering nie tussen mens en dier kan plaasvind nie, want is hulle behoort tot verskillende spesies.)  

     

     

    [Angus, tipies jou verdagmaking van my standpunt - nee, ek glo ook nie verbastering tussen mens en dier kan plaas vind nie - ras kan wel biologies by die mens, net soos by diere bepaal word]

     

     

    3. Dit veronderstel dat Kreasioniste ’n biologiese onderskeid maak tussen rasse. (Dis waar. Hulle meen dat God elke ras apart geskape het.)  

     

     

    [Angus, lees asseblief jou paradoksale stelling aan my antwoord op jou punt 1]  

     

     

    4. Dit veronderstel dat Richard Dawkins, en sy dissipels (dis nou ek ook) ’n biologiese onderskeid maak tussen rasse. (Dis nie waar nie. Richard Dawkins sê juis dat ras nie definieerbaar is nie. Hy en ook ek, gee toe dat daar wel genetiese verskille tussen rasse is, maar daar is ook genetiese verskille tussen mense.)

     

     

    [Angus, hoe jy daarby kom "dat Richard Dawkins, en sy dissipels (dis nou jy ook) ’n biologiese onderskeid maak tussen rasse", verbaas my glad nie - dis net nog 'n slenter van jou om my standpunt verdag te probeer maak ... en dan "Richard Dawkins sê juis dat ras nie definieerbaar is nie. Hy en ook ek, gee toe dat daar wel genetiese verskille tussen rasse is, maar daar is ook genetiese verskille tussen mense" - hoe kan jy in een asem wel genetiese verskille tussen rasse erken, net om in die volgende te meen dat ras nie definieerbaar is nie? ... as daar bepaalde genetiese verskil is, dan is die verskil mos omskryfbaar]

     

     

    5. Cornelius sien dit anders, dus onderskei hy nie biologies tussen mens en dier nie. (Hierop kan ek nie kommentaar lewer nie, want ek het nog nooit vantevore, soos wat ek kan onthou, sy mening hieroor gehoor nie.)  

     

     

    [Angus, net jy weet wat jy hierin kwytgeraak het]

     

     

    6. Cornelius onderskei nie biologies tussen rasse nie. (Dis ’n leuen. Cornelius se standpunt was juis dat daar biologies ’n onderskeid tussen rasse is. Hy het so ver gegaan om Dawkins en my van boewery te beskuldig omdat ons meen “ras” is ’n sosiale konstruk.

     

     

    [Angus, net nog 'n punt wat jyself 'n strooipop probeer opstel en dit dan self in flarde stry en baklei]

     

     

    Nou gee Cornelius sy eie interpretasie van aangehaalde sin: “Daarmee bedoel ek ook dat nes ras by diere bepaal word, ek ras by mense logies bepaal - ongeag die kamstige politieke korrekte vereiste en onderdrukking daarvan.”  

     

     

    [Dankie dat jy iewers my woorde aanhaal - al is dit 'n bietjie erg uit plek na al jou veronderstelling vooraf]

     

     

    Ewe skielik maak hy [Cornelius] nie meer biologies onderskeid tussen rasse nie, maar doen dit volgens die logika. (Plato het mos eens gesê dat die mens ’n superieure ras is, as ek reg kan onthou.)  

     

     

    [Angus, biologie is logika... lees die laaste vyf karakters in die woord biologie]

     

     

    Cornelius, ek [Angus] loods geen aanvalle op jou persoon nie, maar as jy ’n onwaarheid kwytraak, sal ek jou daarop wys. Daarmee sien ek niks verkeerd nie. Sou ek iets verdraai, moet my daarop wys, en ek sal dit waardeer. Wat die Genetika betref is ek self onkundig: vandag se kennis is more se ou nuus.  

     

     

    [Angus, geen kommentaar]

     

     

    Jy [Cornelius], daarenteen, gaan anders te werk. As ek iets sê waarvan jy nie hou nie, word ek uitgeskel as ’n boef, as verwaand, en iemand wat buite gestaan en rook het terwyl die klas aan die gang was. Ek wonder wie loods persoonlike aanvalle op wie? En as daar ewe skielik terug moddergegooi word, wie skree eerste Eina!?  

     

     

    [Angus, jy is beslis en sonder twyfel 'n boef waar jy 'n bespotting van ander se Godsdiens maak ... siestog, ek staan magteloos teenoor jou selfbejammering daaroor ... waar was jy toe biologie, as deel van die wetenskap of te wel logika behandel is? ... pas gerus ook "En as daar ewe skielik terug modder gegooi word, wie skree eerste Eina!?" op jouself ... maar, ek stel nie belang in modder gooi nie ... as ek seg jy is 'n boef omdat jy ander se Godsdiens bespot, gooi ek nie modder nie - ek bedoel dit! ... nietemin, jy probeer die sin daarvan vervaag deur dit in die algemeen en vol selfbejammering op jou te pas]

     

     

    Ek dag jy [Cornelius] het buitendien mos al die saak van kundigheid by ons twee opgelos: ek het my kennis van genetika in die huishoudkunde klas opgedoen, terwyl jy Biologie met ’n studie van Mendel, matriek geslaag het.   [Angus, dra daardie skoen as dit jou pas]

     

     

    Jou [Cornelius] rasse klassifikasie volgens Coon is nogal interessant. Coon was eintlik bekend as een van die baanbrekers van die Antropologie; ’n bioloog was hy dus nie. Ek het gedink jou klassifikasie sal op biologiese grondslae berus. Jy het mos volgehou dat ras biologies definieerbaar is. 9en ek wag tevergeefs op daardie biologiese definisie.)  

     

     

    [Angus, antropologie beteken natuurkennis van die mens, menskunde... dis 'n onderdeel van die biologie ... antropografie, is weer 'n onderdeel van die antropologie wat 'n studie maak van die verspreiding op aarde van die menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ensovoorts - 'n vakgebied wat deur jou en Richard Dawkins "geshutdown" moet word]

     

     

    Jou [Cornelius] stelling: “Homo sapiens, kom uit die paragenese van verskeie hominele genusse oor millennia en van oral op ons aarde heen - nie net Afrika nie!”, het jy, volgens jou verduideliking en die skakel wat jy daarby gee, nie mooi oor gedink nie.  Ek [Angus] tel agt Homo spesies, en daar kon onmoontlik teling tussen hulle plaasgevind het. Homo habilis(2.3-1.4 miljoen jaar gelede), Homo ergaster(1.8-1.3 miljoen jaar gelede), Homo rudulfensis (1.9 miljoen jaar gelede), was al fossiele toe Homo neanderthalensis (230-29 duisend jaar gelede) en Homo sapiens hulle verskyning gemaak het. Jou skakel het te make met die verdrywing van die Neanderdaller deur Homo sapiens, en die moontlike inteling wat plaasgevind het, want daar bestaan die denkwyse dat ons Neanderdalbloed in ons are het.  

     

     

    [Angus, jy wil duidelik net nie verstaan nie ... dis al ... daarom meen jy ek nie mooi gedink het nie ...die res van jou aanname is dan presies wat ek wou het jy moet weet! - mooi so]

     

     

    Lede van die haplogroep R was die eerste setlaars uit Afrika wat Europa binnegedring het. Hulle word gedefinieer deur die Y-chromosoom M173 wat saam met die M237-draers getrek het. Spoedig na hulle intrek, het die Neanderdal-era tot ’n einde gekom. Homo heidelbergensis kan moontlik ’n voorouer wees van die Neanderdal, en dan is daar nog Homo floresiensis, en Homo erectus. Waar jy egter aan “van oral op ons aarde heen” kry, sal net jy kan sê. Nee, die spoor van die Y-chromosoom merkers en die mitochondria dui beslis dat Afrika die beginpunt was. Buitendien, die fossiele van Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo rudolfensis, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis is in Afrika gevind. Homo floresiensis is in Indonesië ontdek terwyl Homo neanderthalensis in Europa gekry is. “Van oral op die aarde heen”? Nog so nooit as te nimmer nie.  

     

     

    [Angus, Indonesië en Europa, is nie in Afrika nie]

     

     

    Dan tik jy [Cornelius] iets vir my heel onverstaanbaar: “Jou miskenning van die teling van mense aan die hand van die Bybel, is ook net so belaglik soos jy en die heer Dawkins se veronderstelling dat die mens uit 'n Adam en Eva stam. Selfs Apartheid en Afrikaner Nasionalisme se rassisme was 'n gelsag of wat op die Bybel geskoei!” Wees asseblief meer spesifiek wat my [Angus] “miskenning van die teling van mense aan die hand van die Bybel” betref. Wie in die Bybel het met mense geteel?  

     

     

    [Angus, as jy die Bybel wel lees soos jy voorgee, dan sou jy lees dat God, die voorskrifte vir mense se trou bepaal het]  

     

     

    En ek [Angus] sal graag wil weet waar jy daaraan kom dat ek en Dawkins dink die mens stam uit Adam en Eva?  

     

     

    [Angus, 'n Adam en Eva, nie "Adam en Eva" nie]  

     

     

    Die navorsers verwys na die haplogroepe met Y-chromosoom as Adam, en die haplogroepe met mtDNA as Eva, maar dit wil nie sê enigeen van hulle het met slange gepraat en verkeerde vrugte geëet nie. Was die paradys nie tussen die Tigris- en die Eufraatriviere nie? Is jy nie bietjie deurmekaar nie?  

     

     

    [Angus, as jy nie die woordjie "'n" in my sin "'n Adam en Eva" VERDRAAI het nie, dan sou jy self jou antwoord kon lees en my punt verstaan]  

     

     

    Afrikaner Nasionalisme se rassisme was wel op die Bybel geskoei, dit is waar, maar jy is mos daarmee eens.  

     

     

    [Nee Angus, ek is beslis nie eens daarmee nie ... dog, hier erken jy minstens dat sommige fundamentele en ekstreme Bybelaanbidders, rassisme op die Bybel skoei]   

     

     

    As Dawkins sê die mens is een spesie en ras is nie definieerbaar nie, dan maak jy mos heftig beswaar en beweer dat daar ’n duidelike onderskeid tussen rasse is. Dis mos pure apartheid by jou.  

     

     

    [Nee Angus, nes geslag biologies man en vrou bepaal, ek die werklikheid omtrent genetiese verskille by ras respekteer - maar veral die IDENTITEIT wat menige hart aan hul geërfde biologie koester - iets wat jy, Wouter Ferns en Jaco Fourie, duidelik geen respek voor het nie ... lees gerus byvoorbeeld ons geliefde emeritus aartsbiskop Desmond Tutu se beskouing van ras na - ek deel sy beskouing omtrent die onderskeid in die reënboog se kleure as deel van God se variasie, verskeidenheid en wil op  aarde ... nes ek nie masochisties is omdat ek trots op my manlikheid is nie, of my vrou feministies is omdat sy trots is op haar vroulikheid is nie - nie een van ons rassisties is omdat ons die genetiese erflikheidsfaktore (biologiese) van my medemens herken, erken en respekteer nie - inteendeel, diegene wat nie hulself en biologie kan liefhet nie, haat eweneens ander se identiteit]

     

     

    Angus, tel al die woorde hierbo; jy is nes Kobus de Klerk en Wouter Ferns, 'n meester in die veronderstelling dat die een wat die hardste lieg, die waarheid pleeg!!!

     

     

    Opregte etniese- Afrikaner groete,

     

     

    Cornelius Henn

     

  • FC Boots

    Omdat dit van die Vatikaan afkomstig is, is dit nou kwansuis meer geloofwaardig as die vele vertalers van die Ou Testament oor die eeue heen wat in wese min van mekaar verskil nie, veral mbt enkel en meervoud.

    Sal graag jou bron wil oplees om te kan kontrolleer

    Jaco Fourie

  • Pieter Redelinghuys

    Beste FC Boot,

     

    Baie dankie vir hierdie besondere interessante inset van jou kant. Ek wonder net hoeveel lesers eintlik die volle implikasies van hierdie vertalingsfout besef: nl dat daar dalk legio vertalingsflaters in die Bybel mag voorkom. Afgesien van al die flaters in die storie rondom Sodom, is ek bewus van seker nog die grootste flater van almal: nl die vertaling van die Griekse woord vir "jong vrou" as "maagd". Dit gee dan geboorte aan die mite van die maagdelike geboorte van Christus. Dusvêr het die Christelike Kerk tjoepstil gebly oor hierdie Flater van Flaters en dalk neem dit weer 500 jaar vir die Kerk om te reageer.

     

    Miskien is dit hoogstyd dat die Bybel herskryf word.

     

    Beste groete,

     

    Pieter Redelinghuys

     

     

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Hello FC

    Die lees van Gen.1:26 & 27 was eintlik nog nooit anders as 'n verwysing na 'mense'/'die mens' ('man' in Engels) in die meervoud nie. In konteks lyk dit so in die RSV: Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

    Die probleem wat moderne lesers het met hierdie vertaling is nie soseer dat dit meervoud is nie, maar dat dit manlik is. Die argument dat dit 'n meervoud is word gebruik as regverdiging om 'n meer polities korrekte woord, soos 'humankind' te gebruik (die Afrikaanse 'mense'/'die mens' veroorsaak natuurlik nie hierdie probleem is nie).

    Die NRSV vertaal as volg: "26 Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."27 So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them."

    Net ingeval jy dalk dink dat daar nie 'n agenda is om die Bybel "skoon" te maak van seksistiese taalgebruik (veral in die NRSV), vergelyk Matt.5:22:

    RSV: "But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire." en die NRSV: "But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire."

    Hiermee wil ek nie sê dat jy nie reg kan wees wat Genesis betref nie; dat daar tog verwys word na meer as 'n enkele man en vrou. Dit bly 'n interessante interpretasie wat nie vir my geforseerd klink nie. Is ons nie maar geneig om Gen.1 te lees in die lig van Gen.2, waar daar wel verwys word na die skepping van een man en een vrou? Dit terwyl ons weet dat hierdie twee aparte skeppingsverhale is wat alreeds propvol teenstrydighede is. Hoekom nie hierdie een ook nie?

    Chris

  • Dankie aan almal wat 'n bydrae gelewer het. Dit was 'n onderwerp wat my tydens my jarelange
    'sondagskoolonderwyser' gepla het,veral as jy moet bont staan en verduidelik waar die baie mense vandaan kom waarvoor  Kain so bang is dat hul hom sou doodmaak  tydens sy omswerwinge op aarde omdat hy sy broer Abel doogemaak het.

    Kain het darem vir hom 'n plek in die land Nod gekry.Sy vrou daar ontmoet en 'n nageslag verwek en 'n
    stasdbouer van formaat geword.Dit is dus menslike ontwikkeling teen versnelde pas.

    Wat moet ons nou hieruit leer? Die ou testament  is niks meer as die geskiedenis van 'n besondere volk nie en alle skrywe is dan ook bedoel vir die mense van die volk en nie geskryf in enige besonder
    volgorde nie.

    Wat dus vir die mense van vandag na soms onsinnige sprokiesverhale klink het vir die mense besondere betekenis gehad en is dan ook mondeling oorgedra van geslag tot geslag.Dit is opmerklik dat die skrywers van "Die Boodskap' nie langer  praat van 'n mens wat na die beeld van God geskape is nie,maar
    die ou bekende, soos volg vertaal het.Gen 1:27.
    "God het toe die mens gemaak.En die mens het iets van God in hom gehad.God het 'n man en 'n vrou gemaak.'

  • Pieter Redelinghuys

    Beste Chris,

     

    My primêre, automatiese, reaksie tot jou skrywe, was: Jissis, maar die man is darem "erudite".

     

    Dankie, en hou so aan.

     

    Beste groete,

     

    Pieter Redelinghuys

  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Angus, ek glo jou! - jou denke veral 'n kruk vir die enkelinge hier wat nie vir hulself kan dink nie... Opregte Boere-Afrikaner-etniese groete, Cornelius Henn

     

     

  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Pieter Redelinghuys,  

     

     

    Chris Dippenaar, nes Kobus de Klerk, ken gewoon die Bybel soos dit hul ewe misantropiese agendas pas.  

     

     

    Beide minag ander se harte met hul kamstige kunde daarin (nie een van die twee is eens regtig so slim soos dit die strooipop-jaers hier behaag nie).

     

     

    Beide beskou die Bybel as God; die een om homself daarmee in sy waan om God in pag oor ander se harte te verhef - die ander om dit vir sy slimmighede en sommer ook toiletpapier te gebruik, en so kamstig sy mag oor God te toon.  

     

     

    Die werklikheid is egter dat niks van hul slimmigheid met die Bybel, eens naasteby Godsdiens betrek nie - want die Woord van God leef in ons harte en nie tussen die bladsye van enige heilige Skrif op aarde nie.  

     

     

    Namaste!  

     

     

    Cornelius Henn

     

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Cornelius, apies soos jy wat niks van 'n onderwerp af weet nie kom dikwels op 'n woord af wat hulle dan Google vir 'n definisie. Hierdie definisie word dan rondgegooi met groot bravade om vir almal te wys hoe slim hulle is.

    'Antropografie' is die woord wat jy gekry het in jou rondkrappery op die internet met die volgende definisie wat jy gee: "'n onderdeel van die antropologie wat 'n studie maak van die verspreiding op aarde van die menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ensovoorts." Ek daag jou uit om ons te verwys na die antropologiese literatuur wat antropografie bespreek as onderdeel van antropologie.

    Asof hierdie nie genoeg is nie, gee jy dan wragtig die volgende definisie van antropologie ook: "antropologie beteken natuurkennis van die mens, menskunde... dis 'n onderdeel van die biologie."

    In 'n bietjie meer as 50 woorde maak jy twee keer 'n yslike knater van jouself. Jy kroon dit met die volgende: "'n vakgebied wat deur jou en Richard Dawkins "geshutdown" moet word." As hierdie vakgebied antropografie is gaan Richard Dawkins maar sukkel om dit te "shutdown". Hoe "shutdown" jy iets wat nie bestaan nie?

    Terloops, terwyl ons praat van goeters wat nie bestaan nie, wie is BIG BROTHER?

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Hello FC

    Daar is een yslike stok wat in die speke van beide my en jou se interpretasies gesteek kan word. Dit gebeur wanneer die JEPD-hipotese in ag geneem word:

    Dit wat jy kan sê oor Kain is verbind aan die J-bron wat begin met Gen.2:4b en ononderbroke gaan tot aan die einde van Gen.4:24. Anders as die P-bron (Gen.1:1 - 2:4a), is hier geen sprake van 'n skepping van meer mense as 'n enkele man en 'n enkele vrou, Adam en Eva. Ek is bevrees dat, tensy jy 'n harmonisering forseer tussen die eerste en tweede skeppingsverhale, jy nog steeds sit met die probleem: Waar kom die baie mense vandaan waarvoor  Kain so bang is dat hul hom sou doodmaak  tydens sy omswerwinge op aarde omdat hy sy broer Abel doodgemaak het? Hoe was sy vrou verwant aan hom as hy behoort het aan die eerste geslag na Adam en Eva, die enigste mense aan die begin? Die hele idee van 'n stad gebou deur sy seun Enoch maak ook geen sin in die konteks van die J-bron se skeppingsverhaal nie. Daar was eenvoudig nie genoeg mense nie. Ons het duidelik te doen hier met 'n mite waar logiese feite van min belang is. Die J-bron sluit af met 'n lys van Kain se nageslag.

    Gen 4:25-26 word toegeskryf aan die redaktor wat die verskillende bronne (JEPD) saamgevoeg het en van Gen 5:1 hervat die P-bron waar dit laas opgehou het in Gen 2:4a met: 1 Dit is die stamboom van Adam. Die dag toe God Adam geskape het, het hy hom gemaak na die gelykenis van God. 2 Man en vrou het hy hulle geskape en hulle geseën en hulle mens genoem, die dag toe hulle geskape is. 3 Toe Adam honderd-en-dertig jaar oud was, het hy 'n seun verwek na sy gelykenis, na sy ewebeeld, en hom Set genoem. 4 En die dae van Adam, ná die geboorte van Set, was agthonderd jaar. En hy het seuns en dogters gehad." Die res van hoofstuk 5 gee 'n geslagsregister wat eindig by Noag. Dus, volgens die P-bron was Set Adam se eersgeborene. Set word nooit genoem in die J-bron en Kain weer nooit in die P-bron. Die doel van Gen 4:25-26, ingevoeg deur die redaktor, was om hierde twee verskillende tradisies te vereenselwig deur Set 'n plaasvervanger te maak vir Abel.

    Ek vra nou dieselfde vraag as jy: "Wat moet ons nou hieruit leer?" In albei bronne (P & J) sit ons met geslagsregisters wat begin by Adam, die eerste mens. Die een van Adam deur Set en die ander een van Adam deur Kain. Wat beteken dit vir ons interpretasie hierbo dat Genesis 1 verwys na meer as net die skepping van een man en een vrou?

    As ons verder in gedagte hou dat 'Adam' in Hebreeus 'mens'/'man' beteken, dan kan Gen.5, volgens Richard Elliott Friedman (The Bible with Sources Revealed), as volg vertaal word: "1 This is the Book of Records of the Human [Adam]. In the day of God's creating a human, He made it in the likeness of God.2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and called their name "Human" in the day of their being created." Die NRSV vertaal dit baie dieselfde: "1 This is the list of the descendants of Adam. When God created humankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them "Humankind" when they were created." Dit klink asof dit maar net 'n herhaling is van Gen.1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."27 So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." Dit word in Gen.5 egter gevolg deur 'n geslagsregister vanaf die eerste mens, en dit maak 'n groot verskil aan hoe Gen 1 geïnterpreteer kan word.

    Dit blyk dus dat in Gen 1, soos in Gen 2, daar slegs een man en een vrou geskep word deur God, en gevolglik dan dat Gen 1, selfs al sou dit verbind kon word met Gen 2, ook nie die probleme met die Kain-storie oplos nie. In al twee skeppingsverhale het ons te doen met mitologie as produk van die antieke wêreld wat van bitter min historiese waarde kan wees, veral as in ag geneem word dat dit honderde jare na die "tydperk" wat beskryf word eers neergeskryf is.

    Chris

    Ns. Ek vra verskoning as my argument dalk effens deurmekaar klink. Dit help dalk om sin te maak van wat ek skryf as jy liggies met 'n potlood die verskillende bronne, asook die invoegsel van die redaktor, merk volgens die versverwysings wat ek hierbo gee.

  • In die Bybel lees 'n mens van 'n vloed wat tot die uitwissing van die ganse menslike geslag gelei het en bevat Genesis 5 ook die name van mense wat voor die groot watervloed geleef het. Slegs Noag en sy mense oorleef dit en hieruit sal dan alle mense op aarde hul oorsprong vind.

    Dat die mens wel getref is met rampe wat hul feitlik  uitgewis het is waar.Vulkaniese uitbarstings gevolg deur ystydperke het 'n ernstige bedreiging gevorm en die mense poel dus ook die genetiese materiaal drasties verminder soos blyk uit:

    Extract from "Journal of Human Evolution" Late Pleistocene human population bottlenecks, volcanic winter, and differentiation of modern humans. by Professor Stanley H. Ambrose, Department of Anthropology, University Of Illinois, Urbana, USA Extract from "Journal of Human Evolution" [1998] 34, 623-651

     The last glacial period was preceded by 1000 years of the coldest temperatures of the Late Pleistocene, apparently caused by the eruption of the Mount Toba volcano. The six year long volcanic winter and 1000-year-long instant Ice Age that followed Mount Toba's eruption may have decimated Modern Man's entire population.

    Genetic evidence suggests that Human population size fell to about 10,000 adults between 50 and 100 thousand years ago. The survivors from this global catastrophy would have found refuge in isolated tropical pockets, mainly in Equatorial Africa.

     Populations living in Europe and northern China would have been completely eliminated by the reduction of the summer temperatures by as much as 12 degrees centigrade. Volcanic winter and instant Ice Age may help resolve the central but unstated paradox of the recent African origin of Humankind: if we are all so recently "Out of Africa", why do we not all look more African?

    Because the volcanic winter and instant Ice Age would have reduced populations levels low enough for founder effects, genetic drift and local adaptations to produce rapid changes in the surviving populations, causing the peoples of the world to look so different today.

    In other words, Toba may have caused Modern Races to differentiate abruptly only 70,000 years ago, rather than gradually over one million years. Volcanic Winter The Mount Toba eruption is dated to approximately 71,000 years ago. Volcanic ash from Mount Toba can be traced north-west across India, where a widespread terrestrial marker bed exists of primary and reworked airfall ash, in beds that are commonly 1 to 3, and occasionally 6 meters [18 feet] thick. Tambora, the largest known historic eruption, displaced 20 cubic kilometres of ash.

    Mount Toba produced 800 cubic kilometres.* It was therefore forty times larger than the largest eruption of the last two centuries and apparently the second largest known explosive eruption over the last 450 million years. Volcanic Winter, and Differentiation of Modern Humans Mount Toba's eruption is marked by a 6 year period during which the largest amount of volcanic sulphur was deposited in the past 110,000 years.

     This dramatic event was followed by 1000 years of the lowest ice core oxygen isotope ratios of the last glacial period. In other words, for 1000 years immediately following the eruption, the earth witnessed temperatures colder than during the Last Glacial Maximum at 18-21,000 years ago.

     For the volcanic aerosols to be effectively distributed around the earth, the plume from the volcanic eruptions must reach the stratosphere, a height greater than 17 kilometres. Mount Toba's plume probably reached twice this height. Most solar energy falls at low latitudes between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, so eruptions that happen near the Equator cause much more substantial cooling due to the reflection of solar energy.

    Toba lies 2 degrees north of the Equator, on the Island Sumatra. The reduction in atmospheric visibility due to volcanic ash and dust particles is relatively short-lived, about three to six months. Longer-term global climatic cooling is caused by the highly reflective sulphuric acid haze, which stays suspended in the upper atmosphere for several years.

    Ice core evidence implicates Mount Toba as the cause of coldest millennium of the late Pleistocene. It shows that this eruption injected more sulphur that remained in the atmosphere fo a longer time [six years] than any other volcanic eruption in the last 110,000 years.

    This may have caused nearly complete deforestation of southeast Asia, and at the same time to have lowered sea surface temperatures by 3 to 3.5 degrees centigrade for several years. If Tambora caused the " The year without a summer" in 1816, Mount Toba could have been responsible for six years of relentless volcanic winter, thus causing a massive deforestation, a disastrous famine for all living creatures, and a near extinction of Humankind.

    The Volcanic Winter/Weak Garden of Eden model proposed in this paper. Population subdivision due to dispersal within African and other continents during the early Late Pleistocene is followed by bottlenecks caused by volcanic winter, resulting from the eruption of Toba, 71 ka.

    The bottleneck may have lasted either 1000 years, during the hyper-cold stadial period between Dansgaard-Oeschlger events 19 and 20, or 10ka, during oxygen isotope stage 4. Population bottlenecks and releases are both sychronous.

    More individuals survived in Africa because tropical refugia were largest there, resulting in greater genetic diversity in Africa. Blombos Cave : 77,000 years old Small and portable, this red ochre stone is engraved with what must be "tally" marks.

     It is one of two such stones recently found in the Blombos Cave in South Africa and have been dated as being 77,000 years old, making them the oldest form of recorded counting ever found. The stone is worn which probably indicated that it wasconstantly handled over a period of time, how long is impossible to tell.

    It looks as though the stone has been reused at least once before as the lighter marks appear to have been erased rather than worn away naturally. If the dating is accurate this stone was used 5000 years before the Mount Toba eruption of 71,000 years ago. The evidence from the Toba eruption indicates that the world's population of Modern Man was reduced to a total of around 10,000 adults."

    Die groot watervloed wat in die Bybel beskryf  word vind volgens die Joodse jaartelling plaas in 1658 (2102 B C E). Dit is dus 'n gebeurtenis wat plaasvind jare na die tydperk waarin die mens amper uitgewis is. Die skrywers van Genesis was dus nie bewus daarvan dat daar wel groepies mense oorgebly het  soos bv in die suidpunt van Afrika en dat volgens hul waarneming die hele menslike ras, behalwe Noag en sy mense in die groot watervloed uitgewis is .

  • Beste Cornelius, 

    Toe jy hierbo geskryf het, het jy dit seker as ? grap beskou, seker om my deurmekaar te maak, want as jy ernstig was, dan het jy ? probleem. Dan het die logika waarmee jy so spog by die agterdeur uitgeglip, en kan jy nie mooi tussen werklikheid en verbeelding onderskei nie. Dit mag ook wees dat jy nie mooi verstaan wat aangaan nie. 
     
     Jy (Cornelius) het getik: “Anders as die kreasioniste (asook Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels), onderskei ek op geen grond tussen mens en dier rakende die omskrywing van enige biologiese aspek nie - ook nie ras nie."
     
     Hieruit het ek maar eintlik net gesê wat jy getik het, nl. dat kreasioniste (asook Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels) biologies ? onderskeid maak tussen mens en dier, maar dat jy, Cornelius, nie biologies ? onderskeid maak tussen mens en dier nie. Ten spyte daarvan dat ek feitlik woord vir woord herhaal het wat jy gesê het, word ek as gevolg daarvan van verdagmakery beskuldig. Dit sê net een ding: jy het nie self verstaan wat jy getik het nie, want toe ek jou verduidelik hoe Richard Dawkins en sy volgelinge biologies onderskei, nl. dat hulle verskillende spesies is omdat kruisteling nie tussen hulle plaasvind nie, toe – ewe skielik – maak jy ook so biologies ? onderskeid tussen mens en dier.
     
     Ek wil nie verder ingaan op jou ander dwalinge nie (tensy jy aandring daarop).
     
     Hier is duidelik twee standpunte rakende die oorsprong van Homo sapiens: 1. Homo sapiens kom uit Afrika (wat Dawkins en sy volgelinge aanhang); 2. Homo sapiens het op verskeie plekke oral oor die wêreld ontstaan (wat Coon en Cornelius aanhang). Daar is ook twee standpunte wat ras betref: 1. “ras” is ? sosiale konstruk (wat Dawkins en sy volgelinge aanhang); 2. “ras” is ? biologiese konsep (wat Coon en Cornelius aanhang).  
     
     Graag verneem ek jou mening verder oor die twee onderwerpe. 
     
    Vergeet maar die rookstorie; ek het nog nooit gerook nie, en sal ook nooit rook nie. Drink, ja! Ek sê nooit nee vir so ? doppie JB Bluelabeltjie nie. Black sal ook doen, alhoewel dit bietjie kras smaak.
     
     Groete, 
     Angus
  • CorneliusHenn

    Chris Dippenaar,

    Jou obsessie is sieklik!

    Jy kots: "'Antropografie' is die woord wat jy gekry het in jou rondkrappery op die internet met die volgende definisie wat jy gee:"
     

    NEE Chris Dippenaar, ek het nie die woord antropografie geGoogle nie (nie dat daar fout is met Google nie) - dis in die verklarende woordeboek!!!!

    antropografie Onderdeel v.d. antropologie wat 'n studie maak v.d. verspreiding op aarde v.d. menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens.

    Val maar weereens verby Chris Dippenaar, maar kom onn bêre hierdie een ook net om te wys hoe belaglik jy kan raak met jou "kdk- debatknopery".

    Cornelius Henn

  • Daar is heelwat geskryf oor wat die oorsake sou wees van dit wat bekend staan as "human genetic bottlenecks". Dat elke teorie in die verband sy ondersteuners en verwerpers het blyk uit die volgende. Wat wel duidelik is dat daar wel "human genetic bottlenecks" was. Prentjies en foto's  word nie gewys nie. Google die opskrif as jy dit wil sien.

    (1)Toba super-volcano catastrophe idea 'dismissed' By Jonathan Amos Science correspondent, BBC News (Toba traces: The volcanic glass fragments are thinner than human hair  photo)

    The idea that humans nearly became extinct 75,000 ago because of a super-volcano eruption is not supported by new data from Africa, scientists say. In the past, it has been proposed that the so-called Toba event plunged the world into a volcanic winter, killing animal and plant life and squeezing our species to a few thousand individuals.

    An Oxford University-led team examined ancient sediments in Lake Malawi for traces of this climate catastrophe. It could find none. "The eruption would certainly have triggered some short-term effects over perhaps a few seasons but it does not appear to have switched the climate into a new mode," said Dr Christine Lane from Oxford's School of Archaeology.

    "This puts a nail in the coffin of the disaster-catastrophe theory in my view; it's just too simplistic," she told BBC News. The results of her team's investigation are published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). Glass signature .(photo)

    Toba traces: The volcanic glass fragments are thinner than human hair The Toba super-eruption was the biggest volcanic blast on Earth in the past 2.5 million years, and probably further back than that as well. Researchers estimate some 2,000-3,000 cubic kilometres of rock and ash were thrown from the volcano when it blew its top on what is now the Indonesian island of Sumatra.

    Much of that debris landed close by, piling hundreds of metres deep in places. But a lot of it would also have gone into the high atmosphere, blocking out sunlight and cooling the planet. Sulphurous gases emitted in the eruption would have compounded this effect. The cores record climate changes in East Africa stretching back half a million years Some scientists have argued that the winter conditions this would have induced could have posed an immense challenge to early humans and have pointed to some genetic studies that indicated our ancestors likely experienced a dramatic drop in numbers - a population "bottleneck" - around the time of the eruption.

    The Oxford team reasoned that if this perturbation was so great, it ought to be evident in the sediments of Lake Malawi. This body of water is some 7,000km west of Toba in the East African Rift Valley, from where our Homo sapiens species emerged in the past 100,000 years or so. The lake is said to retain an excellent record of past climate change which can be inferred from the types and abundance of algae and other organic matter found in its bed muds.

    Tens of metres of sediments have been drilled to retrieve cores, and it these recordings of past times that Dr Lane and colleagues examined. They identified tiny glass shards mixed in with the muds almost 30m below the lake bed. The shards represent small fragments of magma ejected from a volcano that have "frozen" in flight.

     "They're smaller than the diameter of a human hair, less than 100 microns in size," explains Dr Lane. "We find them by sieving the sediments in a very long process that goes through every centimetre of core." Chemical analysis ties the fragments to the Toba eruption. Re-timed droughts The shards are present only in traces, but indicate the eruption spewed ash much further than previously thought - about twice the distance recorded in other studies.

    But the investigation finds no changes in the composition of the sediments that would indicate a significant dip in temperatures in East Africa concurrent with the Toba eruption. The crater at Mount Toba in Indonesia is itself now the site of a large lake What is more, the presence of the shards has allowed researchers to more accurately time other climate events that are seen in the cores.

    This includes a group of huge droughts previously dated to occur some 75,000 years ago. These have now been pushed back at least 10,000 before the eruption. "All long records like the Malawi cores are very difficult to date, particularly when you get beyond the limits of radiocarbon dating which is 50,000 years. So having a time marker like Toba in the cores is really exciting."

    Major reductions in population size leave their mark on genetic diversity of modern individuals. For Homo sapiens, such bottlenecks are evident some 100,000 years ago and 50,000-60,000 years ago - both probably related to migrations out of Africa.

     Dr Chris Tyler Smith studies genetics and human evolution at the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Cambridge, UK. He said the Toba theory was a popular one a few years ago, but more recent study had led most researchers to move on from the subject. "It was an exciting idea when it was first suggested but it just hasn't really been borne out by subsequent advances," he told BBC News. Dr Lane's team included Ben Chorn and Thomas Johnson from the University of Minnesota, Duluth, US.

    (2)Ash from the Toba supereruption in Lake Malawi shows no volcanic winter in East Africa at 75 ka Christine S. Lanea,1, Ben T. Chornb, and Thomas C. Johnsonb Author Affiliations 1.      Edited by Mark H. Thiemens, University of California at San Diego, La Jolla, CA, and approved March 15, 2013 (received for review January 23, 2013) Abstract

     The most explosive volcanic event of the Quaternary was the eruption of Mt. Toba, Sumatra, 75,000 y ago, which produced voluminous ash deposits found across much of the Indian Ocean, Indian Peninsula, and South China Sea. A major climatic downturn observed within the Greenland ice cores has been attributed to the cooling effects of the ash and aerosols ejected during the eruption of the Youngest Toba Tuff (YTT).

    These events coincided roughly with a hypothesized human genetic bottleneck, when the number of our species in Africa may have been reduced to near extinction. Some have speculated that the demise of early modern humans at that time was due in part to a dramatic climate shift triggered by the supereruption. Others have argued that environmental conditions would not have been so severe to have such an impact on our ancestors, and furthermore, that modern humans may have already expanded beyond Africa by this time.

    We report an observation of the YTT in Africa, recovered as a cryptotephra layer in Lake Malawi sediments, >7,000 km west of the source volcano. The YTT isochron provides an accurate and precise age estimate for the Lake Malawi paleoclimate record, which revises the chronology of past climatic events in East Africa. The YTT in Lake Malawi is not accompanied by a major change in sediment composition or evidence for substantial temperature change, implying that the eruption did not significantly impact the climate of East Africa and was not the cause of a human genetic bottleneck at that time."

    Dit is natuurlik moeilik om te bepaal wat die aantal onnatuurlike sterftes was as gevolg van die inasem
    van die as en haarfyn glasstukkies deur die oermense wat in die omgewing geleef het. Wat wel duidelik is
    dat natuurrampe soos droogtes, watervloede en super vulkaniese uitbarsting tot 'n beduidende vermindering van mense en dus ook genetiese gelei het.

  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Angus,  

     

    Dis goed om te lees jy rook nie, maar het jy nie dalk te veel saam met hulle om die hoek gaan sit en bank nie?   

     

    Angus, betreffende my beskouing omtrent die mens as deel van die algemene biologie op aarde het jy heel spontaan en entoesiasties  - dog erg verkeerd - op grond daarvan veronderstel dat verbastering tussen mens en dier kan plaas vind.  

     

    Nee Angus, biologie beteken die studie van lewe - alle lewe - voëls, visse, mense, plante en diere ... al het elkeen hul eie seks voorkeur en vatbaarheid vir hal voortplanting (daar is natuurlik perverte en dekadente wat meen dat seks toelaatbaar is met enigiets wat nie nee kan seg nie, maar ek bepaal my altyd en soos gewoon by die norme).  

     

    As sulks is die mens se vlees en bloed, ewe omskryfbaar en aan dieselfde logika as die van voëls, visse en diere.    

     

    Soos ook menigmaal voorheen aan jou gedeel; ras is beide 'n sosiale konstruk en dit kan biologies omskryf word - aangeleenthede waaroor ons lankal ooreenstemming het.  

     

    Angus,  betreffende jou ideologiese, fundamentele en ekstreme vasval met "homo sapiens" en waar dit sou ontstaan het;  meen jy en Richard Dawkins werklik dan dat daar GEEN verdere evolusie plaasgevind het, of enige teling met ander spesies en die ontstaan van besondere groepe (rasse) buite Afrika die afgelope en ongeveer 200 000 jaar was nie?  

     

    Hoekom dan die sentiment by die vertakking van "homo sapiens" plaas, as daar verskeie takke verder daaruit kon ontstaan het?  

     

    Angus,  Google gerus hierdie titel of soek dit in jou naaste biblioteek: "The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution". Ek kon die boek op 'n stadium en vir 'n wyle leen en het my mening oor die onderwerp meestal daaruit aangevul.

     

    Opregte groete,  

     

    Cornelius Henn

     

  • Beste Cornelius,

    Dis jy wat die verkeerde veronderstellings maak. Ek het bloot dit wat voor my staan, herhaal, sonder veronderstellings, sonder fieterjasies, sommer netso kaalkop soos dit daar staan.
     
    Voor my staan die volgende: Cornelius maak nie 'n onderskeid tussen mens en dier nie; nie; nie op enige grond nie, ook nie biologies nie.
     
    Dawkins en sy volgelinge maak onderskeid tusen mens en dier.
     
    Toe het maar net verduidelik, sonder enige veronderstelling, sonder verdagmakery, sonder niks, behalwe wat ek weet hoe Dawkins 'n onderskeid maak tussen mens en dier. Dan is dit nie eens hy wat so sê nie, hy praat andere na, en Sy volgelinge stem ook saam soos ander wetenskaplikes die biologiese onderskeid maak. Tussen mens en dier kan nie kruisteling plaasvind nie en op grond daarvan kan gesê word dat hulle tot verskillende spesies behoort. Dit is geen refleksie op wat jy ookal gesê of beweer het nie, Daardie feit staan heel onafhanklik van wat jy ookal beweer.  
     
    Miskien is jy te liggeraak en meen alles wat ek sê is om tot jou nadeel te wees. Dit laat my dink aan my Jack Russell: selfs as ek 'n boek oopmaak om iets te lees, dan dink sy dit het iets met haar te make.
     
    Netso maak kom jy tot 'n verkeerde gevolgtrekking oor wat Dawkins meen oor Homo sapiens. Natuurlik het kruisteling verder plaasgevind tussen Homo-genusse. Hulle is mos nie verskillende spesies nie. 
     
    Een van die redes waarom Afrika aangewys word as die beginpunt van Homo sapiens, is dat jy meer  DNA-variëteite binne enige Afrika-stam of bevolking kry as in die res van die wêreld. Hoe meer variëteite hoe langer die bestaan van so 'n groep, want wanneer DNA gekopieer word, kom nuwe mutasies by sonder dat die vorige mutasie uitgewis word. Dis 'n geval van copy/paste, nie cut/paste nie. 
     
    Groete,
    Angus
  • Chris Dippenaar

    Cornelius, ek voel 'n veer of jy 'antropografie' geGoogle het en of jy dit in die beste woordeboeke opgesoek het. Die 'bottomline' is dat dit nie 'n "onderdeel vd antropologie wat 'n studie maak vd verspreiding op aarde vd menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens" is nie. In watter teksboek gaan jy kyk om my verkeerd te bewys?

    En in watter teksboek dat antropologie 'n onderafdeling van biologie is?

  • CorneliusHenn

    Chris Dippenaar, hoekom sal 'n omskrywing in 'n verklarende woordeboek verskyn sonder dat dit in 'n teksboek dieselfde omskrywing geniet?  ... handboeke, of te wel teksboeke, help 'n student, spesialis en belangstellende om dieper (verdere) kennis rakende die onderwerp te bekom ... my belangstelling rakende die 'antropografie' byvoorbeeld, eindig by die verklaring daarvan in 'n woordeboek ... ook danksy Google, verloor onderdrukkers en sinici soos jy met jou kamstige meerdere kennis in alles grond (nes 'n wafferse Kobus de Klerk) ... ek is heelhartig daarvan oortuig dat as ek sou wou ek 'n teksboek sal Google wat jou verdagmakery sal onthul ... maar, ek stel nie belang nie - soos jy seg - jy voel tog 'n veer ... jy't jou ergerlikheid en onthutstheid aan my afgesmeer, en dis tog jou enigste doel ... Cornelius Henn

     

     

     

  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Angus,  

     

    Net omdat jy so seg, is dit allermins die waarheid.  

     

    Jy kan seker ook uit die alfabet wat ek gebruik jou eie woorde opmaak en my dan kamstig daaraan ophang.

     

    Intussen het jy minstens so effe uit jou waan ontwaak en besluit dat ras, wel biologiese gedefinieer kan word - dit, ten spyte van jou fundamentele en ekstreme mening voorheen en tot die teendeel daarvan.  

     

    Derhalwe, jou en Richard Dawkins se sentimentele obsessie met 'n Adam en Eva uit 'n tuin van Eden (Afrika), is ideologies en uiters onwetenskaplik net om jul (kreasionistiese) en religieuse agenda te dien - bloot geloof en ongeloof as twee kante van dieselfde munt.

     

    Opregte groete,  

     

    Cornelius Henn

     

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Cornelius, kom ek maak dit makliker vir jou. Gaan Google vir ons 'n sinvolle artikel van 'antropografie' wat jou woordeboek verklaring ("onderdeel vd antropologie wat 'n studie maak vd verspreiding op aarde vd menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens") ondersteun.

    Ons wag ook nog steeds vir 'n verwysing wat jou die volgende stelling laat maak: "antropologie beteken natuurkennis van die mens, menskunde... dis 'n onderdeel van die biologie."

  • Beste Cornelius,

    Elke keer as jy met jou rekenaar reageer, bewys jy dat jy nie presie weet waaroor die hele debat gaan nie. 
     
    Die woord "ras" by die mens is 'n sosiale konstruk. Mense deel mense in verskillende rasse agv waar hulle woon, watter taal hulle praat, waarvandaan hulle kom, aan watter kant van die grens hule woon, hoe hulle lyk, watter kleur hulle is. Genetici sal vir jou die verskil tussen rasse kan aandui deur die ontleding van hulle genome. Chromosoom 16 het bv te make met kleur, maar so baie chromosome dra by tot ander verskille. Dat daar 'n verskil tussen rasse biologies is, is waar, maar niemand op deeske aardbol het groepe mense se genome ontleed en hulle daarvolgens in wat ookal verdeel nie. Weet jy miskien van enige menseras waarvan die genoom ontleed is en toe daardie ras genoem is? Laat my asseblief weet watter menseras op die manier geklassifiseer is. Het jy miskien verskillende groepe mense in rassegroepe verdeel nadat jy hulle genome ontleed het?

    As jy dink dat die teorie dat Homo sapiens uit Afrika sommer ideologies en onwetenskaplik is, hoe verklaar jy dan die geweldige hoop navorsing wat deur wetenskaplikes gedoen is? 

    Ek dink jy is besig om Kobus de Klerk se rol oor te neem want jy stry teen jou beterwete.

    Groete,
    Angus


  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Angus,

     

    Jou stryd was teen die gedagte dat ras, biologies omskryf kan word.

     

    Na derduisende woorde het jy dit self erken, naamlik dat; ras, biologies omskryf kan word.

     

    Dit was van die begin af die punt.

     

    Dankie vir jou toegewing daaraan (dog baie duidelik steeds moeilik vir jou).

     

    Nog altyd aanvaar ek meriete in beide argument, naamlik dat; ras, sosiale konstruk - en biologies omskryfbaar is.

     

    Ek dink die doel van die gesprek is bereik.

     

    Dis genoeg.

     

    Namaste!

     

    Cornelius Henn

     

  • CorneliusHenn

    Chris Dippenaar,

     

    Ek begin werklik jammer vir jou te voel ...

     

    Kan iemand naby jou nie dalk jou sleutelbord vir 'n wyle wegsteek sodat jy oor jouself kan kom nie?

     

    Jy tik (so ewe verwaand): Ons wag ook nog steeds vir 'n verwysing wat jou die volgende stelling laat maak: "antropologie beteken natuurkennis van die mens, menskunde... dis 'n onderdeel van die biologie."

     

    Wie is die "ons" Chris Dippenaar?

     

    Ly jy aan dieselfde siekte as Kobus de Klerk se "me, myself, and I"?

     

    Miskien weet jy dalk regtig nie hoe om te Google nie.

     

    Daarom, hier is 'n antwoord uit menige  - spesiaal vir "julle": http://www.hsps.cam.ac.uk/prospective-students/subjects/biological-anthropology

     

    Nie te danke nie,

     

    Cornelius Henn

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Cornelius, biologiese antropologie is 'n onderafdeling van antropologie, saam met die ander drie onderafdelings: kulturele antropologie, linguistiek en argeologie. Waar jy daaraan kom dat antropologie 'n onderafdeling van biologie is, sal net jy weet.

    'Antropografie', 'n woord wat jy nie sal vind in enige moderne antropologie teksboek nie, kom moontlik uit 'n tydperk toe antropologie nog nie beskou is as 'n volwaardige dissipline nie, en ook nog nie etnografiese studies as metode aangewend het nie. Etnografiese studie het egter 'n baie spesifieke betekenis in kulturele antroplogie wat geheel en al afhanklik is van "deelnemer observasie". Maw, dit is gelokaliseerd.

    'Antropografie', indien daar enige waarde is in so 'n term, sou eerder gevind word in 'n dissipline soos sosiologie, ek weet nie, maar definitief nie antropologie nie. En selfs al sou dit daar gevind word, sal dit niks doen vir jou idee van biologiese mensrasse nie.

    Kulturele antropologie kyk na spesifieke kulture as 'n ingewikkelde geheel. Sekere spesifieke eienskappe van 'n kultuur kan moontlik ooreenstem met eienskappe van ander kulture, maar spesifieke eienskappe maak nie 'n kultuur nie. Dit is baie soortgelyk aan wat Angus nou al tot vervelens toe aan jou probeer verduidelik het: spesifieke biologiese en genetiese merkers maak nie 'n ras nie.

     

  • Die debat oor die oorsprong van die mens woed nog steeds onverpoos voort. Hier is 'n paar artikels oor die onderwerp. Google die opskrifte vir prentjies ens.

    Origins of Modern Humans: Multiregional or Out of Africa?

    Donald Johanson
     Article highlights :There are two theories about the origin of modern humans: 1) they arose in one place — Africa and 2) pre-modern humans migrated from Africa to become modern humans in other parts of the world.

     Most evidence points to the first theory because: fossils of modern-like humans are found in Africa stone tools and other artifacts support African origin.DNA studies suggest a founding population in Africa

    ( May 2001- Lucy is the common name of an Australopithecus afarensis specimen discovered in 1974 in Ethiopia. Lucy is estimated to have lived 3.2 million years ago. Cleveland Natural History Museum, photo by Andrew.)

     Around 30,000 years ago humans were anatomically and behaviorally similar throughout the world. One of the most hotly debated issues in paleoanthropology (the study of human origins) focuses on the origins of modern humans, Homo sapiens.9,10,3,6,13,15,14

    Roughly 100,000 years ago, the Old World was occupied by a morphologically diverse group of hominids. In Africa and the Middle East there was Homo sapiens; in Asia, Homo erectus; and in Europe, Homo neanderthalensis.

    However, by 30,000 years ago this taxonomic diversity vanished and humans everywhere had evolved into the anatomically and behaviorally modern form. The nature of this transformation is the focus of great deliberation between two schools of thought: one that stresses multiregional continuity and the other that suggests a single origin for modern humans.

    Understanding the issue Multiregional theory:

     homo erectus left Africa 2 mya to become homo sapiens in different parts of the world. The Multiregional Continuity Model15 contends that after Homo erectus left Africa and dispersed into other portions of the Old World, regional populations slowly evolved into modern humans.

     This model contains the following components:
    (i)some level of gene flow between geographically separated populations prevented speciation, after the dispersal
    (ii) all living humans derive from the species Homo erectus that left Africa nearly two million-years-ago

    (iii)natural selection in regional populations, ever since their original dispersal, is responsible for the regional variants (sometimes called races) we see today

    (iv)the emergence of Homo sapiens was not restricted to any one area, but was a phenomenon that occurred throughout the entire geographic range where humans lived

     In contrast, the Out of Africa Model13 asserts that modern humans evolved relatively recently in Africa, migrated into Eurasia and replaced all populations which had descended from Homo erectus.

    Critical to this model are the following tenets:

    (i)Out of Africa theory: homo sapiens arose in Africa and migrated to other parts of the world to replace other hominid species, including homo erectus.

    (ii)after Homo erectus migrated out of Africa the different populations became reproductively isolated, evolving independently, and in some cases like the Neanderthals, into separate species.

    (iii)Homo sapiens arose in one place, probably Africa (geographically this includes the Middle East)

    (iv)Homo sapiens ultimately migrated out of Africa and replaced all other human populations, without interbreeding

    (v)modern human variation is a relatively recent phenomenon

    The multiregional view posits that genes from all human populations of the Old World flowed between different regions and by mixing together, contributed to what we see today as fully modern humans.

    The replacement hypothesis suggests that the genes in fully modern humans all came out of Africa. As these peoples migrated they replaced all other human populations with little or no interbreeding.

    To understand this controversy, the anatomical, archaeological, and genetic evidence needs to be evaluated.

    Anatomical evidence
     Sometime prior to 1 million years ago early hominids, sometimes referred to as Homo ergaster, exited Africa and dispersed into other parts of the Old World. Living in disparate geographical areas their morphology became diversified through the processes of genetic drift and natural selection.

     In Asia these hominids evolved into Peking Man and Java Man, collectively referred to as Homo erectus
    .In Europe and western Asia they evolved into the Neanderthals. Neanderthals lived in quasi isolation in Europe during a long, relatively cool period that even included glaciations.

    Neanderthals are distinguished by a unique set of anatomical features, including:
    (i) a large, long, low cranial vault with a well-developed double-arched brow ridge
    (ii)a massive facial skeleton with a very projecting mid-face, backward sloping cheeks, and large nasal aperture, with large nasal sinuses
    (iii)an oddly shaped occipital region of the skull with a bulge or bun molars with enlarged pulp chambers, and large, often very heavily worn incisors
    (iv)a mandible lacking a chin and possessing a large gap behind the last molar
    (v) a massive thorax, and relatively short forearms and lower legs although short in stature they possessed robustly built skeletons with thick walled limb bones
    (vi) long clavicles and very wide scapulas

    Homo sapiens is a separate species from Neanderthals and other hominids By 130,000 years ago, following a prolonged period of independent evolution in Europe, Neanderthals were so anatomically distinct that they are best classified as a separate species — Homo neanderthalensis.

    This is a classic example of geographic isolation leading to a speciation event. In contrast, at roughly the same time, in Africa, a body plan essentially like our own had appeared. While these early Homo sapiens were anatomically modern they were not behaviorally modern.

    It is significant that modern anatomy evolved prior to modern behavior. These early sapiens were characterized by:
    (i)a cranial vault with a vertical forehead, rounded occipital and reduced brow ridge
    (ii)a reduced facial skeleton lacking a projecting mid-face
    (ii)a lower jaw sporting a china more modern, less robustly built skeleton

    Hence, the anatomical and paleogeographic evidence suggests that Neanderthals and early modern humans had been isolated from one another and were evolving separately into two distinct species. Archaeological evidence
    Very interestingly, while Neanderthals and early Homo sapiens were distinguished from one another by a suite of obvious anatomical features, archaeologically they were very similar. Hominids of the Middle Stone Age of Africa (H. sapiens) and their contemporary Middle Paleolithic Neanderthals of Europe had artifact assemblages characterized as follows:
     (i)little variation in stone tool types, with a preponderance of flake tools that are difficult to sort into discrete categories
    (ii)over long periods of time and wide geographical distances there was general similarity in tool kits

    (iii)a virtual lack of tools fashioned out of bone, antler or ivory
    (iv)burials lacked grave goods and signs of ritual or ceremony
    (v)hunting was usually limited to less dangerous species and evidence for fishing is absent
    (vi)population densities were apparently low
    (vii)no evidence of living structures exist and fireplaces are rudimentary

    Homo sapiens exhibited technological skills around 50,000 years ago.
    (i) evidence for art or decoration is also lacking

    The archaeological picture changed dramatically around 40-50,000 years ago with the appearance of behaviorally modern humans. This was an abrupt and dramatic change in subsistence patterns, tools and symbolic expression. The stunning change in cultural adaptation was not merely a quantitative one, but one that represented a significant departure from all earlier human behavior, reflecting a major qualitative transformation. It was literally a “creative explosion” which exhibited the “technological ingenuity, social formations, and ideological complexity of historic hunter-gatherers.”7 This human revolution is precisely what made us who we are today.

     The appearance of fully modern behavior apparently occurred in Africa earlier than anywhere else in the Old World, but spread very quickly, due to population movements into other geographical regions. The Upper Paleolithic lifestyle, as it was called, was based essentially on hunting and gathering. So successful was this cultural adaptation that until roughly 11,000 years ago, hominids worldwide were subsisting essentially as hunter-gatherers.

     In the Upper Paleolithic of Eurasia, or the Late Stone Age as it is called in Africa, the archaeological signature stands in strong contrast to that of the Middle Paleolithic/Middle Stone Age. It was characterized by significant innovation:
    (i)a remarkable diversity in stone tool type
    (ii)stool types showed significant change over time and space
    artifacts were regularly fashioned out of bone, antler and ivory, in addition to stonestone
    (iii)artifacts were made primarily on blades and were easily classified into discrete categories, presumably reflecting specialized use
    (iv)burials were accompanied by ritual or ceremony and contained a rich diversity of grave goods
    (v)living structures and well-designed fireplaces were constructed

    (vi)hunting of dangerous animal species and fishing occurred regularly higher population densities
    (vii)abundant and elaborate art as well as items of personal adornment were widespread
    (viii)raw materials such as flint and shells were traded over some distances

    Homo sapiens of the Upper Paleolithic/Late Stone Age was quintessentially modern in appearance and behavior. Precisely how this transformation occurred is not well understood, but it apparently was restricted to Homo sapiens and did not occur in Neanderthals. Some archaeologists invoke a behavioral explanation for the change. For example, Soffer11 suggests that changes in social relations, such as development of the nuclear family, played a key role in bringing about the transformation. Social or biological changes may account for “smarter” hominids.

     Klein7, on the other hand, proffers the notion that it was probably a biological change brought about by mutations that played the key role in the emergence of behaviorally modern humans. His biologically based explanation implies that a major neural reorganization of the brain resulted in a significant enhancement in the manner in which the brain processed information.

    This is a difficult hypothesis to test since brains do not fossilize. But it is significant that no changes are seen in the shape of the skulls between earlier and later Homo sapiens. It can only be surmised from the archaeological record, which contains abundant evidence for ritual and art, that these Upper Paleolithic/Late Stone Age peoples possessed language abilities equivalent to our own. For many anthropologists this represents the final evolutionary leap to full modernity.

    Shortly after fully modern humans entered Europe, roughly 40,000 years ago, the Neanderthals began a fairly rapid decline, culminating in their disappearance roughly 30,000 years ago. Neanderthals were apparently no match for the technologically advanced fully modern humans who invaded Europe and evidence for interbreeding of these two types of hominids is equivocal.

    Genetic evidence
     Investigation of the patterns of genetic variation in modern human populations supports the view that the origin of Homo sapiens is the result of a recent event that is consistent with the Out of Africa Model.

    (i) Studies of contemporary DNA, especially mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) which occurs only in the cellular organelles called mitochondria, reveal that humans are astonishingly homogeneous, with relatively little genetic variation.1,5

    (ii)The high degree of similarity between human populations stands in strong contrast to the condition seen in our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees.2 In fact, there is significantly more genetic variation between two individual chimpanzees drawn from the same population than there is between two humans drawn randomly from a single population. Furthermore, genetic variation between populations of chimpanzees is enormously greater than differences between European, Asian and African human populations.

     Africans display higher genetic variation than other populations, supporting the idea that they were the first modern humans.

    (i)In support of an African origin for Homo sapiens the work of Cann and Wilson1 has demonstrated that the highest level of genetic variation in mtDNA occurs in African populations. This implies that Homo sapiens arose first in Africa and has therefore had a longer period of time to accumulate genetic diversity. Using the genetic distance between African populations and others as a measure of time, they furthermore suggested that Homo sapiens arose between 100,000 and 400,000 years ago in Africa.

    (ii)The low amount of genetic variation in modern human populations suggests that our origins may reflect a relatively small founding population for Homo sapiens. Analysis of mtDNA by Rogers and Harpending12 supports the view that a small population of Homo sapiens, numbering perhaps only 10,000 to 50,000 people, left Africa somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago

    (iii).Scientists recently succeeded in extracting DNA from several Neanderthal skeletons.8 After careful analysis of particularly the mtDNA, but now also some nuclear DNA, it is apparent that Neanderthal DNA is very distinct from our own. In assessing the degree of difference between DNA in Neanderthals and modern humans, the authors suggest that these two lineages have been separated for more than 400,000 years.

    Although in its infancy, such genetic studies support the view that Neanderthals did not interbreed with Homo sapiens who migrated into Europe. It is, therefore, highly likely that modern humans do not carry Neanderthal genes in their DNA.

    Additional considerations
    The chronology in the Middle East does not support the Multiregional Model where Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans overlapped for a long period of time.

     (i)Cave sites in Israel, most notably Qafzeh and Skhul date to nearly 100,000 years and contain skeletons of anatomically modern humans. Furthermore, Neanderthal remains are known from sites such as the 110,000-year-old Tabun cave, which predates the earliest Homo sapiens by about 10,000 years in the region.

    Neanderthals and modern humans coexisted in some parts of the world for thousands of years.

    (ii)The presence of Neanderthals at two other caves in Israel, Amud and Kebara, dated to roughly 55,000 years means that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens overlapped in this region for at least 55,000 years. Therefore, if Homo sapiens were in this region for some 55,000 years prior to the disappearance of the Neanderthals, there is no reason to assume that Neanderthals evolved into modern humans

    (ii).Archaeological evidence from Europe suggests that Neanderthals may have survived in the Iberian Peninsula until perhaps as recently as 30,000 to 35,000 years ago. Fully modern humans first appear in Europe at around 35,000-40,000 years ago, bringing with them an Upper Paleolithic tool tradition referred to as the Aurignacian. Hence, Neanderthals and fully modern humans may have overlapped for as much as 10,000 years in Europe. Again, with fully modern humans on the scene, it is not necessary to have Neanderthals evolve into modern humans, further bolstering the view that humans replaced Neanderthals.

    Neanderthals probably did not breed with modern humans but they borrowed some of their tools and skills

      (i)The situation in southern France is, however, not quite as clear. Here, at several sites, dating to roughly 40,000 years there is evidence of an archaeological industry called the Châtelperronian that contains elements of Middle and Upper Paleolithic artifacts. Hominids from these sites are clearly Neanderthals, sparking speculation that the Châtel perronian is an example of Neanderthals mimicking the culture of modern humans. The lack of anatomical intermediates at these sites, suggests that if Neanderthals did encounter and borrow some technology from Homo sapiens, they did not interbreed.

    (ii)A potential 24,500-year-old Neanderthal/sapiens hybrid was announced from the site of Lagar Velho, Portugal.4 This 4-year-old has a short, squat body like a Neanderthal, but possesses an anatomically modern skull. There are a number of problems with interpreting this find as a Neanderthal/sapiens hybrid.14 First of all, as a hybrid it should have a mixture of traits throughout its body and not possess the body of a Neanderthal and skull of a modern human. For example, if we look at hybrids of lions and tigers they do not possess the head of one species and the body of the other, but exhibit a morphological mixture of the two species. Secondly, and more importantly, acceptance of this specimen as a hybrid would suggest that Neanderthal traits had been retained for some 6,000 to 10,000 years after Neanderthals went extinct, which is highly unlikely. This is theoretically unlikely since Neanderthal traits would have been genetically swamped by the Homo sapiens genes over such a protracted period of time.

    (iii) Proponents of the Multiregional Model, such as Milford Wolpoff, cite evidence in Asia of regional continuity. They see an evolutionary link between ancient Homo erectus in Java right through to Australian aborigines. A possible problem with this view is that recent dating of late surviving Homo erectus in Indonesia suggests that they survived here until 50,000 years ago, which is potentially when fully modern humans may have arrived in the region from Africa

    .(iv)China may contain the best evidence for supporting the Multiregional Model. Here there are discoveries of a couple of skulls dated to roughly 100,000 years ago that seem to possess a mixture of classic Homo erectus and Homo sapiens traits. Better geological dating and more complete specimens are needed to more fully assess this possibility.

    Conclusion
     For the moment, the majority of anatomical, archaeological and genetic evidence gives credence to the view that fully modern humans are a relatively recent evolutionary phenomenon. The current best explanation for the beginning of modern humans is the Out of Africa Model that postulates a single, African origin for Homo sapiens. The major neurological and cultural innovations that characterized the appearance of fully modern humans has proven to be remarkably successful, culminating in our dominance of the planet at the expense of all earlier hominid populations.

    Paleoanthropologist Donald C. Johanson, is professor of anthropology and Director of the Institute of Human Origins at Arizona State University. He is best known for his discovery of “Lucy”, a 3.2 million-year old Australopithecus afarensis skeleton he found in 1974 in Ethiopia.

    His books include Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind and, most recently, From Lucy to Language. Dr. Johanson hosted the Emmy-nominated NOVA television series In Search of Human Origins.

    Article references (Sien asb oorspronklike artikel)
      author glossary
     Gene flow - the flow of genes from one population to another.
    Genetic drift - the change of gene frequency from one generation to another caused by the cumulative effects of random fluctuations, rather than by natural selection.
    Mitochondrial DNA - the DNA found only in the mitochondria (the powerhouses of the cell) and inherited only from the mother.
    Morphology - the scientific study of the form and structure of organisms.
    Paleoanthropology - the study of human origins, the study of the fossil and cultural remains of extinct human ancestors.
    Taxonomy - the classification of organisms into groups according to their relationships and the ordering of these groups into a hierarchical arrangement.

     Dit is interessant om daar op te Let dat navorsers van die Max Planck institute bevind het dat :

      Neandertals made the first specialized bone tools in Europe Edited by Erik Trinkaus, Washington University, St. Louis, MO, and approved May 22, 2013 (received for review February 12, 2013)

     Abstract :
    "Modern humans replaced Neandertals ∼40,000 y ago. Close to the time of replacement, Neandertals show behaviors similar to those of the modern humans arriving into Europe, including the use of specialized bone tools, body ornaments, and small blades. It is highly debated whether these modern behaviors developed before or as a result of contact with modern humans. Here we report the identification of a type of specialized bone tool, lissoir, previously only associated with modern humans. The microwear preserved on one of these lissoir is consistent with the use of lissoir in modern times to obtain supple, lustrous, and more impermeable hides. These tools are from a Neandertal context proceeding the replacement period and are the oldest specialized bone tools in Europe. As such, they are either a demonstration of independent invention by Neandertals or an indication that modern humans started influencing European Neandertals much earlier than previously believed. Because these finds clearly predate the oldest known age for the use of similar objects in Europe by anatomically modern humans, they could also  be evidence for cultural diffusion from Neandertals to modern humans."

    Ander navorsing.

     Denisovan DNA suggests a dark complexion and interbreeding ww.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2012/august/denisovan-dna-suggests-a-dark-complexion-and-interbreeding113697.html 

     31 August 2012 Replica of the finger bone fragment from the ancient Denisovan human who lived about 75,000 years ago. Scientists have obtained its complete genome. © Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary
    (sien foto in artikel)

    Anthropology Scientists have reconstructed the whole genetic code, or genome, of a group of ancient humans called Denisovans. They interbred with our species and the DNA results suggest they had dark hair, eyes, and skin, the journal Science reports.

     In 2010, scientists from the Max Planck Institute in Germany announced the new human group based on DNA evidence from a finger bone fossil found in Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains, Siberia.

     That first DNA was obtained from mitochondria, tiny power structures in each human cell that contain their own DNA. Now, many of the same team have used a new approach and have sequenced chromosomal DNA (the DNA of the cell nucleus which contains most genes) from the same finger bone fossil.

    'They were able to reconstruct the whole genome to a quality matching that obtained for living humans,' says Professor Chris Stringer, human origins expert at the Natural History Museum. 'The higher quality genome not only provides greater confidence about previous conclusions, but also adds many details about the Denisovans, and how modern humans may have differed from them,' adds Stringer.

    Skull of Homo heidelbergensis, the ancient human species that may be the ancestor of the mystery Denisovan human. (sien oorspronklike artikel)

    'The research confirms that the Denisovans were related to the Neanderthals, and that many present-day Australasians have Denisovan DNA from an ancient interbreeding event.'

    Some theories place Denisovans, along with Neanderthals and modern humans, as the descendents of the ancient human Homo heidelbergensis who lived about 500,000 years ago.

     Potential biological differences
     By comparing the genomes of Denisovans, apes, Neanderthals and different modern human populations, the team could identify DNA segments unique to these different groups.

     This may help shed light on potential biological differences between modern humans and the Neanderthal and Denisovan populations they replaced, Stringer says. 

    For example, in modern humans, unique segments were associated with brain function and nervous system development, as well as diseases affecting the skin and eyes.

    'Perhaps some of the skin and eye-related ones reflect resistance to diseases in the African homeland of modern humans, but the brain-related ones hint at possible enhancements in brain structure and function in our species.'

    Two Neanderthal interbreeding events?
    Skull of a Neanderthal, Homo neanderthalensis (sien oorspronklike artikel vir prentjie)

    The Denisovan genome also reveals more clues about Denisovan and Neanderthal interbreeding with modern humans. Until now, evidence suggested that after modern humans dispersed from Africa about 60,000 years ago, there was a single interbreeding event with Neanderthals. '

    Previous research suggested that all recent populations originating from outside of Africa had received about the same amount of Neanderthal input, implying a single early hybridisation event somewhere like the Middle East,' says Stringer.

     However, the results of this study show that the Neanderthal genetic input to modern human populations outside of Africa varies. 'This suggests that, overall, Europeans have less Neanderthal DNA (about 1%) than populations to the east (1.7%),' explains Stringer. '

    This might imply changes in the proportions after interbreeding took place, or that there was more than one interbreeding event.'

     Denisovan interbreeding confirmation

    The team found that the Denisovan genetic input in Australasian populations averaged about 3%. 'This supports the idea that Denisovans must have been present in south east Asia, where the hypothesised interbreeding with the ancestors of present-day Australasians occurred, as well as in Siberia,' says Stringer.

    Low genetic diversity
     Our genes often come in different variants, such as those for skin colour or eye colour and a large population will generally hold more variation than a small population. But, the Denisovan DNA results showed very low diversity, much less than a single modern human would show, says Stringer.

     'This is surprising because the previous mitochondrial DNA research had suggested relatively high diversity, and interbreeding with the ancestors of Australasians (who are thought to have passed through southern Asia rather than Siberia) implied that the Denisovans were widespread in Asia, also leading to the expectation of a large and diverse population.'

    'The surprisingly low genetic diversity of the Denisovans may indicate, as with Neanderthals to the west, that the core territory of the Denisovans was well to the south, and that they only expanded to regions like the Altai during brief warm intervals, and in small numbers.'

    Other physical features
     Apart from the genetic evidence of a dark complexion, Stringer says we need to find out more about what the Denisovans looked like physically. 'This will require the recovery of ancient DNA from more complete fossils, perhaps in Denisova Cave itself, or from specimens in regions like China,’ he says.

    'The genome does not tell us how big their brains or brow ridges were, if they had chins, or how tall and robust they were. Hence we need to have Denisovan DNA from more complete fossils to link the genome to morphology'.

     Function of shared DNA
    Stringer says that further research should also help explain what function, if any, the Denisovan and Neanderthal DNA has in the modern humans that hold it.
    More interbreeding
    Finally, there is an issue that perhaps cannot be addressed properly until higher quality reconstructions of Neanderthal genomes also become available, says Stringer. If modern humans interbred successfully with both Neanderthals and Denisovans, did Neanderthals and Denisovans interbreed?

    Stringer thinks this is likely. 'It seems highly probable that they did, given that they co-existed in Eurasia for hundreds of millennia, and Denisova cave itself has evidence of Neanderthal DNA in a fossil foot bone.'

    Stringer concludes, 'Recognition of such interbreeding will inevitably complicate the untangling of the relationships between these ancient groups of humans, and their contributions to people today.'     

    Dit is dus duidelik dat heel wat navorsing nodig is, maar dat navorsing tans meer die teorie
    'Out of Africa' ondersteun.

  • CorneliusHenn

    Sjoe! maar jy's slim Chris Dippenaar ... ek stel voor die wêreld stel jou en Kobus de Klerk as hoofde oor alle kennis op aarde aan - dan begin julle eerstens om algemene kennis onwettig te verklaar, en nes Calvyn 'n Michael Servitus tereg gestel het, enige hardkoppiges wat julle nie eer nie uit die samelewing te verwyder - en dan daarna, gaan julle voort deur jul besonderse interpretasies en spirituele intelligensie in elke verklarende woordeboeke op aarde te verwoord ... hel, mog ek tog nie naby wees nie ... Cornelius Henn

     

     

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Onderaan Angus se brief (Homo sapiens en die grootape) het Wouter 'n bydrae (THE FORGING OF RACES, Race and Scripture in the Protestant Atlantic World, 1600–2000 van Colin Kidd) gemaak wat die hele idee van raskwalifikasie op sy kop draai. Vir die wat nie 'n probleem het met spoeg-en-plak was dit 'n waardevolle bydrae wat ondersteun wat Angus geduldig aan die stadige enetjie probeer verduidelik.

    https://www.litnet.co.za/Article/brief-homo-sapiens-en-die-grootape

    Ns. Wouter, ek hoop nie jy laat jou afsit deur die kritiek teen jou spoeg-en-plak nie. Ons sal dalk partykeer meer van jou eie stem wil hoor, maar dit doen geen afbreuk aan jou bydraes nie.

  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste FC Boot,

     

    Dankie vir jou interessante spoeg en plak.

     

    Ek herhaal dat ek nog altyd meriete aan beide kante van die saak respekteer - inteenstelling tot die ekstreme en fundamentele aangryp deur Angus van bepaalde veronderstellinge asof dit die finale wete is - presies nes Kobus de Klerk die Bybel as Jesus Christus (die Woord van God) en as enigste waarheid verheerlik.

     

    Dit was ook juis my beswaar heel aan die begin, naamlik; dat Richard Dawkins en sy dissipels so maklik na dinamiese hipoteses gryp om die Bybel daarmee verdag te probeer maak.

     

    Kobus de Klerk en Richard Dawkins is gewis ewe misantropies in hul miskenning van ander se harte.

     

    Dis 'n boeiende onderwerp en die volgende bewyse om die een of ander hipotese te staaf, lê net 'n duim iewers onder die stof om te ontdek.

     

    Intussen wil ek jou op die "blou oog" geen wys wat ook ewe evolusionêr die wieg van die "blou oë", ongeveer 10 000 jaar gelede langs die Swartsee dui.

     

    Het jy dalk 'n gesaghebbende stukkie spoeg en plak iewers wat die genetiese (biologiese) omskrywing van die "blou oog" rasse kan vertel?

     

    Opregte groete,

     

    Cornelius Henn

     

  • Beste Cornelius

    Na aanleiding van jou vraag oor die 'blue eye gene' kon ek die volgende op die internet opspoor. Daar is baie meer oor die onderwerp beskikbaar maar dan wel teen betaling.

    Dit is ingedeel soos volg:

    1. Navorsing- Universiteit van Kopenhagen.

    2. ' n Vraag beantwoord deur By Dr. Barry Starr, Stanford University

    3. Nog ‘n vraag. Do blue eyes stem from the Black Sea 8,000 years ago? USA today

    4. Publikasies http://www.livescience.com/9578-common-ancestor-blue-eyes.htmlOne Common Ancestor Behind Blue Eyes.Google die opskrifte vir fotos.  

    3 en 4 is eintlik maar net kommentaar op die navorsing deur die Universiteit van Kopenhagen en dus heelwat herhaling kom voor.Hoop dat dit jou vraag beantwoord.

    1.Navorsing
    Blue-eyed humans have a single, common ancestor University of Copenhagen Associate Professor, Hans Eiberg Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine Tel: (+ 45) 353 27829 Information Officer, Sandra Szivos Faculty of Health Sciences Tel: (+45) 353 27069

    30 January 2008 New research shows that people with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor. A team at the University of Copenhagen have tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye colour of all blue-eyed humans alive on the planet today.

    What is the genetic mutation “Originally, we all had brown eyes”, said Professor Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine. “But a genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a “switch”, which literally “turned off” the ability to produce brown eyes”. The OCA2 gene codes for the so-called P protein, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives colour to our hair, eyes and skin.

    The “switch”, which is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 does not, however, turn off the gene entirely, but rather limits its action to reducing the production of melanin in the iris – effectively “diluting” brown eyes to blue. The switch’s effect on OCA2 is very specific therefore. If the OCA2 gene had been completely destroyed or turned off, human beings would be without melanin in their hair, eyes or skin colour – a condition known as albinism.

    Limited genetic variation Variation in the colour of the eyes from brown to green can all be explained by the amount of melanin in the iris, but blue-eyed individuals only have a small degree of variation in the amount of melanin in their eyes. “From this we can conclude that all blue-eyed individuals are linked to the same ancestor,” says Professor Eiberg.

    “They have all inherited the same switch at exactly the same spot in their DNA.” Brown-eyed individuals, by contrast, have considerable individual variation in the area of their DNA that controls melanin production.

    Professor Eiberg and his team examined mitochondrial DNA and compared the eye colour of blue-eyed individuals in countries as diverse as Jordan, Denmark and Turkey. His findings are the latest in a decade of genetic research, which began in 1996, when Professor Eiberg first implicated the OCA2 gene as being responsible for eye colour.

    Nature shuffles our genes
    The mutation of brown eyes to blue represents neither a positive nor a negative mutation. It is one of several mutations such as hair colour, baldness, freckles and beauty spots, which neither increases nor reduces a human’s chance of survival.

    As Professor Eiberg says, “it simply shows that nature is constantly shuffling the human genome, creating a genetic cocktail of human chromosomes and trying out different changes as it does so.”

     2. ‘n Vraag  en antwoord
    Eye Color Is everyone with blue eyes related? How was that trait passed on? -An undergraduate from California August 9, 2013

    Surprisingly it does appear that most Europeans with blue eyes are pretty closely related.  Scientists can tell this by looking at their DNA. One piece of evidence is that most blue eyed Europeans share the exact same DNA difference that causes their blue eyes.

     Given that there are lots of ways to get blue eyes, this suggests that the people who share this DNA difference all came from the same original ancestor (or founder).  By studying the DNA in a bit more detail, scientists have concluded that this original blue-eyed ancestor probably lived around 6,000-10,000 years ago.

    It is important to note here that not everyone with the same trait is necessarily so closely related.  For example, red haired Europeans get their red hair from a variety of DNA differences.  Not all redheads can trace their history back to an original red haired ancestor.

     Now the fact that blue eyes appeared out of nowhere isn’t that weird…our DNA is much less stable than a lot of people think.  Changes in DNA (or mutations) can and do happen all the time so it isn’t surprising that occasionally one will happen in just the right place to cause blue eyes.

     This probably happened a number of times throughout human history. No the weird part is that the blue eye mutation from that original ancestor took hold and spread through Europe.  Usually this means that the mutation had to have an advantage.  If it didn’t, then like most neutral mutations, it would stay at some low level or disappear entirely. 

    But it is obviously still around and going strong. You may have noted that I said that mutations “usually” spread because of an advantage.  The reason I had to add that qualifier is that sometimes a trait spreads in a population for different reasons, often having to do with luck. Imagine a mutation that leads to blue eyes appears in an ancestor. 

    The blue eyes freak out everyone in the village so this person is banished to an island along with anyone else that villagers might be weirded out by. Now something happens and everyone in the world is wiped out except the people on the island.  Blue eyes will have gone from very rare to very common.

    And as these islanders repopulate the world, blue eyes will stay common.  This kind of thing is more common than you might think and there are many examples of this sort of founder effect. And this isn’t the only way that chance might increase a trait.

      Click here to learn about a few others. While these are possible for other traits, it doesn’t look like this is what is going on for blue eyes.  By looking at the DNA around the blue eye mutation, scientists can see that blue eyes have been strongly selected for.  In other words, they had some sort of advantage. (This is another piece of evidence that blue eyes came from a single common ancestor.)

    Now the tricky part is coming up with that advantage.  Scientists have proposed a couple of possibilities (neither proved).  One is that blue eyes are so sexy that they are irresistible.  And the other is that blue eyes themselves aren’t that useful.

     Instead, they are a side effect of something that was—lighter skin. Peacock Feathers and Blue Eyes In nature, individuals with the best traits go on to have more children than those without those traits.  The children who end up with these traits then go on to have more children and so on.  After a while, more people have these traits. 

    This is one of the major ways that certain gene versions like blue eyes can spread through a population.  Blue eyed people have more kids and their blue eyed kids have more kids.  As blue eyes spread, so does the gene. Usually when we think about an advantage of a trait, we think about something that makes an individual survive better.

     Maybe lighter skin lets them deal better with weak sunlight or being able to drink milk lets them survive harsh winters better.  But not all advantages are like these. Remember that the key to a trait becoming more common over time is that those with the trait have more kids.

     Being a better survivor is one way to accomplish this.  But so is being sexy. If you are more attractive to the opposite sex, chances are you’ll attract more mates.  This “sexual selection” is the idea behind a peacock’s ridiculous tail feathers.  And may be why blue eyes spread so rapidly.  It may be that the people who spread across Europe thousands of years ago found blue eyes irresistible. 

    The blue-eyed Casanovas had lots of partners, many of whom ended up carrying their children (who all had at least one copy of the blue eye color gene).   And blue eyed women always had their pick of potential mates (and often chose the blue-eyed ones).

     This is a fun theory but we really don’t have any proof.  We can’t go back in time and ask these folks if they prefer blue eyed mates to brown eyed ones. If this is why blue eyes spread, we may never have a way of proving it.

     Light Skin Advantage with Bonus Blue Eyes Another possibility is that blue eyes didn’t spread because they had any advantage.  Instead they spread because they were a side effect of something that was an advantage—fair skin.

     When humans first ventured into northern Europe, most were in for a rude shock.  Their dark skin was causing them to develop an awful disease called rickets. Back before fortified milk and vitamin supplements, we got most of our vitamin D from the sun. 

    In most parts of the world, sunlight is strong and frequent enough that people can get plenty of it even with dark skin.  In fact, given the dangers of the UV light from the sun, dark skin was actually selected for in these sunny places.

    But then a few humans moved to Europe with its short, cold winter days.  They had to cover up to keep warm and the sun was hardly out much anyway.  The end result was that with dark skin, they simply could not get enough sun to get enough vitamin D.

    There were a few lucky individuals who had the lighter skin they needed to get their vitamin D way up North.  They did better and had more kids.  Over time, fair skin became very common in northern Europeans. One idea is that blue eyes and fair skin sometimes come from the same piece of DNA. 

    If this were the case, then blue eyes would just be a trait that hitchhiked along with the more useful light skin. This is another good theory but so far scientists haven't been able to prove it.  The DNA difference that is the most common cause of blue eyes does make skin lighter but it isn’t the major reason some Europeans have such pale skin. 

    So right now we don’t know why blue eyes spread so far and wide across Europe.  We have some good ideas but no proof yet.  And it may remain a mystery for a very long time.
    By Dr. Barry Starr, Stanford University 

     3.Nog ‘n vraag.
    Do blue eyes stem from the Black Sea 8,000 years ago?  
    By Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY Updated 2012-02-27 2:24 PM CAPTION By AP

    The blue eyes that gave Frank Sinatra his nickname, Paul Newman his allure and Cameron Diaz her magnetism apparently stem from a single mutation by a lone individual who lived around the northwestern coast of the Black Sea about 8,000 years ago, according to a new genetic research.

    The findings of a team of researchers from Copenhagen University are published in the latest edition of the journal Human Genetics. (READ:  The full study in Human Genetics CAPTION By Anne-Christine Poujoulat/AFP)

     The study analyzed three generations of a large Danish family, as well as five blue-eyed, light-skinned individuals from Turkey and a blue-eyed, dark-skinned person from Jordan. The Daily Mail quotes Hans Eiberg, leader of the team, as saying that a gene called OCA2 does not "make" blue eyes, rather it turns off the mechanism that produces brown melanin pigment.

     "Originally, we all had brown eyes," he says. The research, as would be expected, is dense, but concludes that the mutuations responsible for blue eye color "most likely originate from the neareast area or northwest part of the Black Sea region, where the great agriculture migration to the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about 6,000–10,000 years ago."

    The study does not try to explain the evolutionary selection at work, but notes that fair skin, normally associated with blue-eyed people, is better able to make Vitamin D in the weak sunlight in northern latitudes. Another theory, which any Hollywood casting director could attest to, has to do with sexual selection.

    Here's how the Daily Mail puts it, in decidedly unscientific prose:
     "The theory is that in Europe, where men had to spend weeks at a time out on the hunt, males were in very short supply. In such societies, women who had flaxen locks stood a better chance of standing out and attracting the attention of the few men that would have been available for mating. Even back then, the blue-eyed blonde was not only in demand, but also definitely would have had more fun.
    More from USATODAY 27 Feb. 2012

      4.Publikasies
    http://www.livescience.com/9578-common-ancestor-blue-eyes.htmlOne Common Ancestor Behind Blue Eyes Jeanna Bryner   |   January 31, 2008 03:34am ET   Reese Witherspoon. Credit: Associated Press

    People with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor, according to new research. A team of scientists has tracked down a genetic mutation that leads to blue eyes. The mutation occurred between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. Before then, there were no blue eyes. "Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine at the University of Copenhagen.

    The mutation affected the so-called OCA2 gene, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives color to our hair, eyes and skin. "A genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a 'switch,' which literally 'turned off' the ability to produce brown eyes," Eiberg said.

    The genetic switch is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 and rather than completely turning off the gene, the switch limits its action, which reduces the production of melanin in the iris. In effect, the turned-down switch diluted brown eyes to blue. If the OCA2 gene had been completely shut down, our hair, eyes and skin would be melanin-less, a condition known as albinism.

    "It's exactly what I sort of expected to see from what we know about selection around this area," said John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, referring to the study results regarding the OCA2 gene. Hawks was not involved in the current study. Baby blues Eiberg and his team examined DNA from mitochondria, the cells' energy-making structures, of blue-eyed individuals in countries including Jordan, Denmark and Turkey.

    This genetic material comes from females, so it can trace maternal lineages. They specifically looked at sequences of DNA on the OCA2 gene and the genetic mutation associated with turning down melanin production. Over the course of several generations, segments of ancestral DNA get shuffled so that individuals have varying sequences. Some of these segments, however, that haven't been reshuffled are called haplotypes.

    If a group of individuals shares long haplotypes, that means the sequence arose relatively recently in our human ancestors. The DNA sequence didn't have enough time to get mixed up. "What they were able to show is that the people who have blue eyes in Denmark, as far as Jordan, these people all have this same haplotype, they all have exactly the same gene changes that are all linked to this one mutation that makes eyes blue," Hawks said in a telephone interview.

    Melanin switch The mutation is what regulates the OCA2 switch for melanin production. And depending on the amount of melanin in the iris, a person can end up with eye color ranging from brown to green. Brown-eyed individuals have considerable individual variation in the area of their DNA that controls melanin production.

    But they found that blue-eyed individuals only have a small degree of variation in the amount of melanin in their eyes.  "Out of 800 persons we have only found one person which didn't fit — but his eye color was blue with a single brown spot," Eiberg told LiveScience, referring to the finding that blue-eyed individuals all had the same sequence of DNA linked with melanin production.

     "From this we can conclude that all blue-eyed individuals are linked to the same ancestor," Eiberg said. "They have all inherited the same switch at exactly the same spot in their DNA." Eiberg and his colleagues detailed their study in the Jan. 3 online edition of the journal Human Genetics.  That genetic switch somehow spread throughout Europe and now other parts of the world.

     "The question really is, 'Why did we go from having nobody on Earth with blue eyes 10,000 years ago to having 20 or 40 percent of Europeans having blue eyes now?" Hawks said. "This gene does something good for people. It makes them have more kids." 30 January 2008

  • Hello, 

     
    Ek het hierdie debat gemis en gaan nou deur dit en is die volgende verby belaglik. Verontwaardig skryf sy edele Cornelius Henn die volgende: 

     
    2013-10-08 @12:45
    Hier is Chris Dippenaar se onsin aan die woord antropologie:http://www.anthropologie.com/anthro/index.jsp ... let asseblief dat Chris Dippenaar se beheptheid weereens ligjare van die onderwerp af is ... en dat ek my nie verder daaraan sal skuldig maak
     
    Behalwe dat die skakel is na 'n modehuis met die naam 'anthropologie': 
     
     
    Hierdie bevestig dat Henn nie sy eie skakels lees en seker maak wat die omvang daarvan is nie. 
     
    Jammerlik en met al my simpatie...
     
    Baie dankie
     
    Wouter
  • CorneliusHenn

    Whaaaargghahahahaha!!! ... Wouter Ferns, had jy maar die ordentelikheid en die "debat" gevolg - nietemin, ek glo dat jy steeds tot jou onthutste en patetieke slimjannie gevolgtrekking sou gekom het ... siestog ... ek meen, intussen het selfs Chris Dippenaar dalk besef hoe ek sy ergerlike waan en afdwaal met "antropologie", en met die genoemde webwerf die draak steek ... maar nou ja, jy is in 'n toestand wat duidelik besig is om te vererger - STERKTE ... van diep uit my pankreas en nie te danke, Cornelius Henn

     

  • Neels, 

     
    Jy moet lees voor jy plaas ouboet, dit laat jou dom lyk as jy dit nie doen nie. 
     
    Uit die hart uit
     
    Wouter
     
  • CorneliusHenn

    Goeie raad Wouter Ferns ... had 'n misantroop soos jy ook net die woord "konsekwent" geken, dan sou jy besef het jou raad is veel meer op jouself gepas .... waarghhhahahahahahah!!! ... nie te danke, Cornelius Henn

     

  • Chris Dippenaar

    Cornelius, kom ek herhaal gou weer my vrae aan jou:

    1. Google vir ons 'n sinvolle artikel van 'antropografie' wat jou woordeboek verklaring ("onderdeel vd antropologie wat 'n studie maak vd verspreiding op aarde vd menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens") ondersteun.

    2. Ons wag ook nog steeds vir 'n verwysing wat jou die volgende stelling laat maak: "antropologie beteken natuurkennis van die mens, menskunde... dis 'n onderdeel van die biologie."

    Jy klink nou soos 'n klein seuntjie wat sy broek nat gepiepie het en dan vir sy maatjies vertel dat dit net 'n grappie was.

  • CorneliusHenn

    Ad Nauseam Chris Dippenaar ... in die dertiende kommentaar van bo, staan my antwoord op al jou baie "onse" (nes 'n wafferse Kobus de Klerk homself ook gedurig tel) wat my die volgende stelling laat maak het: "antropologie beteken natuurkennis van die mens, menskunde... dis 'n onderdeel van die biologie.  

     

    Uit die verklarende woordeboek: antropografie Onderdeel vd antropologie wat 'n studie maak vd verspreiding op aarde vd menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens.

     

    In die sewentiende kommentaar van bo, minag die te slim vir woordeboeke Chris Dippenaar, my verwysing uit die verklarende woordeboek met die volgende waansin "Cornelius, ek voel 'n veer of jy 'antropografie' geGoogle het en of jy dit in die beste woordeboeke opgesoek het. Die 'bottomline' is dat dit nie 'n "onderdeel vd antropologie wat 'n studie maak vd verspreiding op aarde vd menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens" is nie. In watter teksboek gaan jy kyk om my verkeerd te bewys? En in watter teksboek dat antropologie 'n onderafdeling van biologie is?"

     

    In die drie-en-twintigste kommentaar van bo, antwoord ek toe heel geduldig met hierdie skakel uit menige beskikbaar op die Internet - en spesiaal vir die "julle" in Chris Dippenaar: http://www.hsps.cam.ac.uk/prospective-students/subjects/biological-anthropology

     

    Ek nooi enige belangstellende om my skakel oop te maak, en self te lees of dit Chris Dippenaar se belaglike uitdaging beantwoord naamlik; "Google vir ons 'n sinvolle artikel van 'antropografie' wat jou woordeboek verklaring ("onderdeel vd antropologie wat 'n studie maak vd verspreiding op aarde vd menslike rasse met hulle eie taal, gewoontes, eienskappe, ens") ondersteun. "

     

    Die inleiding van my skakel lees as volg "Biological Anthropology is a field which explores human biology and evolution. With an emphasis on the interaction between biology and culture, it sits firmly between the social and biological sciences. Biological anthropologists study human origins and diversity in present and past populations in the context of their culture, behaviour, life-style, morphological and molecular variation. What aspects of our biology and behaviour are uniquely human and what do we share with other species? Why is there so little genetic variation among humans across the world? Are we still evolving and why has natural selection not eradicated disease? Can a statistical test save lives? These are some of the big questions Biological Anthropology tries to address by comparing humans with other animals to understand human uniqueness and biological continuity; making comparisons across time to unravel the evolutionary history of hominins over the last 4-7 million years; investigating variation in human development and health, exploring the mechanisms that underlie population differences today and in the past; and looking at individual behaviour in terms of evolution and adaptation and its underlying cognitive basis."  

     

    Hierdie "kat geveg" so gedurig deur die tienerdogter boelie Chris Dippenaar, oorskry lankal reeds die gekste grens met sy afwyk van die onderwerp, en ontsier ook  menige onderwerp met sy desperate pleidooi om Godsdiens ten alle koste te ondermyn!  

     

    Ek herinner my dat die kamstige slim Chris Dippenaar, antropologie ook as 'n hoofopskrif buite die biologie beskou het.     

     

    Om weer tot die onderwerp te keer, het ek en ander belangstellendes ook reeds Angus se bedoeling met die woord  die biologie bevraag.   Net om enige onduidelikheid rakende my bedoeling met die woord biologie te klaar, spoeg en plak ek die volgende omskrywinge spesiaal in Ingels vir die slimmes soos Chris Dippenaar en Wouter Ferns, om ook te verstaan:  

     

    Biology noun    (Concise Encyclopedia) Study of living things and their vital processes. An extremely broad subject, biology is divided into branches. The current approach is based on the levels of biological organization involved (e.g., molecules, cells, individuals, populations) and on the specific topic under investigation (e.g., structure and function, growth and development). According to this scheme, biology's main subdivisions include morphology, physiology, taxonomy, embryology, genetics, and ecology, each of which can be further subdivided. Alternatively, biology can be divided into fields especially concerned with one type of living thing; for example, botany (plants), zoology (animals), ornithology (birds), entomology (insects), mycology (fungi), microbiology (microorganisms), and bacteriology (bacteria). See also biochemistry; molecular biology.    

     

    Biology (from Greek: β?ος, bio, "life"; and λ?γος, logos, "knowledge"), also referred to as the biological sciences, is the scientific study of life. Biology examines the structure, function, growth, origin, evolution, and distribution of living things. It classifies and describes organisms, their functions, how species come into existence, and the interactions they have with each other and with the natural environment. Four unifying principles form the foundation of modern biology: cell theory, evolution, genetics and homeostasis. Biology as a separate science was developed in the nineteenth century, as scientists discovered that organisms shared fundamental characteristics. Biology is now a standard subject of instruction at schools and universities around the world, and over a million papers are published annually in a wide array of biology and medicine journals. For more info, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology

     

    Hoe op aarde die slim Chris Dippenaar, antropologie buite die biologie per definisie plaas, sal net hy en sy Spiritueel Intelligente sikofante weet!

     

    Genoeg is genoeg - probeer gerus 'n volledige bydrae - nes jou meester Kobus de Klerk - om jou dwaal van die punt af te spaar Chris Dippenaar!!

     

    Nie te danke nie,

     

    Cornelius Henn

  • Beste Chris en Cornelius,

    Albei het dit reg.
     
    Cornelius is reg, want as iemand nie weet wat 'n woord beteken nie, kyk hy in die woordeboek na die verklaring. Daarin staan dit duidelik: Antropografie is 'n onderafdeling van Antropologie.
     
    Chris is reg, want hy weet  Antropografie is 'n onafhanklike dissipline, met sy eie ondersoekstrategie.

    Antropografiese ondersoek sluit in verskillende metodes en tegnieke wat in ander dissiplines ook gebruik  kan word, oa in Antropologie, Sosiologie, Onderwys, en Bemarking aangewend word. Vandaar seker die verwarring.

    Groete,
    Angus  
  • CorneliusHenn

    Beste Angus, probeer nou met dieselfde ywer die woord "biologie" verklaar ... miskien kom daar tot die gevolg dat die studie van biologie ook 'n onafhanklike dissipline buite die genetika is, en met sy eie ondersoek strategie ... dink jy nie ook dis tyd dat die kundiges aftree en dat die befaamdes hier soos Kobus de Klerk en Chris Dippenaar alle woordeboeke op aarde hersien nie? ... dink net; met Wouter Ferns wat vir almal dink het nie net elke Susterskerk ook hul eie god nie, maar bestaan sulke problematiese woorde soos ras en midrash eenvoudig net nie meer nie (behalwe vir die slimjanne wat alles mag weet) ...

     

     

     

  • Beste Cornelius,

    En moenie van Cornelius Henn vergeet nie; hy is ons meester Strooipopvervaardiger hier op SêNet.
    Groete,
    Angus
  • CorneliusHenn

    Hahahahaha Angus!!! ... wil jy nou meer? ... dis okei, ek sal sien of ek tyd het ... meesterlike Strooipopvervaardiger groete, Cornelius Henn

     

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